Seeking to Understand Revelation

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

Why did Jesus separate The Sign of the Day of the Lord from "the sign" of His Presence on that same Day? Both signs are mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30. There are three reasons.

Reason One: Both the Day and the Hour are unknown. The Signs of that Day (Seal Six during a full moon) and of the Hour Christ appears (Two Prophets rising up from death, angelic messages that flash across the sky and that of angels gathering the elect from around the globe to Jesus) are unknown in advance. Jesus will know that *Day* has come as the voice out of the Temple decrees: "It is Done." Rev.16:17. He will know the *Hour* has come when three angels, sent from the Temple in heaven to the white cloud, inform the Son of Man to "Reap. For the Hour to Reap has come." Rev.14:15.

​

Matthew mentions separate signs for the Day and Hour! "The Signs" of that Day wait upon the moment the Beast kills the last Martyr. His Father alone knows that moment and will give the signal from within the Temple. For as the Last Plague empties in the air, He decrees: "It is Done." Immediately the Lamb will open Seal Six! Rev.16:17.

It is during this HOUR that "the Sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven"! Matt.24:30. Between verses 29 and 30, there are major events that must be fulfilled on that DAY!! Most of these events occur in the heavens and in the Temple of heaven!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net



​

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,


In Reason #One for Jesus alluding to both Signs of the DAY and of the HOUR of His Presence, in Matt.24:29-36, we should consider that He had a single HOUR among the 12 hours of the last DAY in mind for its greatest calamities on earth and its "great and wonderful" triumphs in heaven before He actually appears.


Because of the signs for the final Hour, the gathering to "The Armageddon" and the last two Plagues of Rev.16:12-17 must precede the opening of Seal Six recorded in Rev.6:12-17 ten chapters earlier! Just as the Day is unknown in advance, so the exact Hour Christ appears is unknown in advance!! The Son of Man must wait on a white cloud until three angels are sent from the Temple to aid in "reaping" the wicked; for they "collect" the wicked to the Winepress after Seal Six opens and He symbolically reaps the earth!!!


Then all the Saints in heaven praise God and the Lamb in the Temple of heaven for the first time ever!

To recapitulate: When the last Martyr is killed, the Lastday has arrived! With the decree: "It is Done," The Lamb opens Seal 6, goes to rescue the 144,000 Jews on Mt. Zion and then, as the Son of Man, "waits on a white cloud" for three angels to come from the Temple in heaven to inform Him: "Reap; The Hour to Reap has come"!! They collect the Armageddons to "the great winepress of God's anger"; the final reservoir of His impatience!!!

The 144,000 and the Martyrs sing 2 songs and then enter the Temple for its Three-Act Drama! Rev.14:1-5; 15:1-5. Rev.7:9 to 8:5; 11:15-19.

That Hour on the Lastday occurs while Signs of that Day continue. "The Signs" of that Hour, including resurrection of the Two Witnesses, rescue of the 144,000 from Mt. Zion and the messages of doom by three angels racing across the skies are distinct from signs initiated by Seal Six on this Day of Darkness. They are additional to the calamitous signs in the sun, moon and stars and the great earthquake that becomes history's greatest during the final "Hour of Trial coming on all of mankind on all the face of all the earth". Rev.3:10; Luke 21:34-35; Rev.16:18-21.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net




​

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

Reason Two for separating the Signs of God’s Day of Wrath from the Hour Christ appears: The Signs of the Hour of His Presence (like lightning with all the Saints being gathered above to Himself) follows more than one sounding of the 7th Trumpet on that Day. Matt.24: 29-31. There is a great trumpet in verse 31 following the sounding of the 7th Trumpet in Rev.11:15 and Trump of God in
I Thess.4:16.

Jesus launches Signs of that Day prior to the Hour of Trial on that Day! The great trumpet blows for the angels to "gather the elect out of the four winds from all extremities of the heavens" surrounding the globe to the meeting place over Jerusalem!! Everyone will see the Saints coming with Him as millions “of the tribes of earth mourn”!!! Matt.24:30-31; Rev.1:7.

Jesus will "gather the elect from earth to heaven" vertically while "angels gather us from all of the heavens' extremities" horizontally. Paul sees all the Saints gathered to the Synagogue in the Sky. Jesus uses the word in the verb form that Paul uses in the noun form for “gathering all the Saints together above and unto Jesus." Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

Signs for the Day and those for the Hour are separated by Rev.7:1-8; Rev. 14:1 to Rev.15:5 and by the Temple Drama of Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19! The 144,000 are sealed and rescued, the wicked are reaped, the martyrs and Firstfruit of the living harvest sing songs of Rev. 14:3-4 and Rev.15:3-4!! Then the Three-Act Drama occurs in the Temple!!!

One hundred verses in Revelation are fulfilled after Plague 7 suspends in midair! That Day’s calamities are more devastating than what happens in 6 Trumpets or 6 Plagues put together!! Giant tsunamis begin to move islands out of place at noontime and complete the displacement before twilight!!!

Signs are so violent that godless men are unable to kill more Saints! So widespread that cities and mountains disappear and 7000 die in a tenth of Jerusalem!! So destructive during the Hour of Trial as aftershocks of history's greatest quake affect mankind!!! Luke 21:34-35; Rev.16:18-21.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

The "charts" I find on Revelation depict Seal Six at the start or in the middle of Daniel's 70th Week. Jesus places its Signs "in the days after great tribulation." Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29. Revelation 11:18; 10:6-7 and 20:4 and Matt.24:31 put the resurrection of all believers in the days whenever time (delay) is no longer a part of God’s Mystery and the 7th Trumpet sounds! This confirms John 6:38-40.

My search requires a single solar day to launch the 1000-Year-Day of the Lord. It cannot include the great tribulation as taught by Pre-Tribs. I believe that 6 AM to 6 PM in Israel, after just 12 hours of that day, the last day of this age, will climax with the start of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. The beginning of that day, terrible for the wicked and glorious for the Saints, requires the personal, visible presence of all the Saints coming with Christ!

Jesus separated the Signs of the Day of the Lord from “the Sign” of His Presence on that same Day for three reasons. One: The events from Rev.7:1-8; Rev.14:1 to Rev.15:5; Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19 take place, in that order, and then “all heaven rejoices before Christ comes to gather and reward the Saints and destroy the “destroyers of earth”! Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12; Rev.11:18.

Two: The Hour of Trial on “all inhabitants on all the face of all the earth” is a literal part of the Day of Wrath and cannot refer to the great tribulation claimed by Pre-Trib doctrine. All believers will be “kept from that Hour”. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-35. No other time can qualify to fulfill both of these texts!!

Three: Jesus, in Matt.24:30 and Rev.1:7, reveals the purpose for the Hour of Trial includes the opportunity for those who “mourn to escape God’s wrath and be kept alive”. This is significantly true for “all Jews who will be saved” as well as for millions of the “tribes of earth who beg to escape and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man”. Jews will suddenly “know their redemption is near; their kingdom is near and that God will remember their sins no more”!!! Joel 2:32; Rom.11:25-27; Luke 17:30-33; Luke 21:28,31,36; Heb.8:8-13.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel Miller: //First comes Rev.16:12-17. Second comes Rev.6:12-17.//

Actually in the book of Revelation Rev 6 appears first. (Textwise only)

This isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event (Matt.24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matt.24:31). It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period.
____________________________________________________________

Ed,
In Post #3 you disputed my argument that Christ’s coming “as a thief” anticipates the fulfillment of Rev.16:12-17 (gathering to Armageddon) PRIOR to the warnings of God’s wrath "in the days AFTER great tribulation”! Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.
Instead, you propose the following:

Quote:
______________________________________________________________________
The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation 16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners
__________________________________________________________________
Please let me remind you that you give no scripture for making a gradual escalation for three theoretical stages of God’s wrath occurring before, during and after the great tribulation! You avoid answering the evidence given by Jesus Himself that we should expect His coming “at any moment as a thief” (present tense) only in the context of the armies having been gathered to Armageddon (past tense gathering)!!
Every Believer will be “kept from the Hour of Trial coming on all the inhabitants on all the fact of all the earth”…on the same Day Christ comes in flaming fire to destroy those who disobey the Gospel and to deliver every one who has believed” because of what Paul taught!!! Rev.3:10; Luke 21:34-35; 2 Thess.1:5-11.

Paul gives the reason for this deliverance, stating twice that Believers will be “worthy of Christ’s coming and Presence”! Your view does not include the purifying effects of the great tribulation during which any Believer guilty of adultery will be “cast by God Himself into great tribulation to be KILLED so that ALL the churches will know that He searches our hearts and minds”!! Rev.2:22-23. The truth of Mark 8:38 and I John 3:3, that we should be "pure" and that Jesus would be (will not be) ashamed of anyone unwilling (willing) to die for Him, is sadly lacking in evangelical circles by failure to distinguish between God’s Discipline and His wrath; for “no Believer will experience God’s wrath in any of His Judgments!!!

During the great tribulation “they will love not their life unto death…those that “keep the Commandments of God, many having been purged or purified and refined, having the Testimony of Jesus and having had their garments washed and made white in the Lamb's blood”! Rev.12:10-11; Dan.12:10-11; Rev.7:9-14; Rev.12:17.

I’m disappointed in your giving a unproven reason (that the great quake of Rev.6:12 could not be part of history's greatest quake of Rev.16:18-20) as to why Rev.16:12-17 does NOT immediately precede the fulfillment of Rev.6:12-17! You cannot deny Jesus will be expected BY BELIEVERS to “come at any moment” in the context of Armageddons threatening to “destroy God’s former people on the DAY Christ becomes King of kings and Lord of lords”!! Only at the 7th Trumpet does it say “God’s wrath has come"…and the appointed time for Resurrection, Rewards and Retribution!!! Rev.11:15-18.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //First comes Rev.16:12-17. Second comes Rev.6:12-17.//

Mel Miller: //Please let me remind you that you give no scripture for making a gradual escalation for three theoretical stages of God’s wrath occurring before, during and after the great tribulation!//

Your criticisms of me contradict each other.
Of course "I gave no scripture' -- you had given the scriptures.
And we were talking about them.

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel Miller: //First comes Rev.16:12-17. Second comes Rev.6:12-17.//

Mel Miller: //Please let me remind you that you give no scripture for making a gradual escalation for three theoretical stages of God’s wrath occurring before, during and after the great tribulation!//
____________________________________________________________
Your criticisms of me contradict each other.
Of course "I gave no scripture' -- you had given the scriptures.
And we were talking about them.

____________________________________________________________

My friend, now you are saying I gave scriptures to show three "theoretical stages of God's wrath"! No, my criticism concerns your failure to support YOUR claim that God's wrath occurs in three stages, each with an increasing degree of intensity...from "wrath to wrathier to wrathiest"!! All along I have supported the premise that God's wrath begins with the 7th Trumpet only "in the days AFTER the great tribulation!!!

I respectfully submit that you are "playing" superficial games with me!
You should not be afraid to use the scriptures to support your claim!!
You should honor God's word: His wrath comes when He says it comes...
just as you should honor Christ's word that He will "raise up all believers; every believer on the last day"!!! Rev.11:18; John 6:38-40,44,54.

Ed, you haven't even begun to show why the wrath of the 7th Trumpet is a "wrathier wrath" than that of the 6th Seal which causes giant tsunamies to cross the oceans in a matter of hours! The first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Seven, until AC begins to persecute God's people, will be a time of peace under Mystery Babylon; not a time of God's "soft wrath"!! Nor does the 7th Trumpet belong to a stage of "wrathier wrath" that must wait for 1000 years before the "wrathiest wrath" of Hell becomes a reality!!!

Believers do not face God's wrath at any time! If they did, they would not still be expecting Christ to come "at any moment" when armies invade Israel and it is the "appointed time to destroy" all those destined for Hell!! It is only with respect to unbelievers that He comes "as a thief" and it is only while the armies are gathered to Armageddon that Jesus "blesses those who watch and remain clothed until He appears on the last day!!!

The armies will be gathered to Armageddon (past tense; aorist indicative)
while Believers are "watching with imminent expectancy" (present tense)!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

Mel,

I find it singularly unconvincing that John wrote the book of The Revelation in such a chronologically jumbled and "hyperlinked" manner as you seem to teach.

Why would John just not present a chronology of events rather than Rev 6 coming after Rev 16? This is most disturbing! It indicates that your message is more important than John's.

Do you also believe in "The Bible Code?"

I find the chronological framework of The Revelation to be 1-2-3-4-5-6-8-9-13-16-19-20-21-22 with chapt 7-10-11-14-15-17-18 being only partly linked into the chain of events in their order of mention.

Your jumping back and forth based on "word clues" is not unifying of either scriptural truth nor of the body of Christ.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

We must recognize that signs of Seal 6 launch the DAY of God’s wrath; not wrath itself! The Day begins “after great tribulation; in the days whenever time shall be no longer; the mystery of God was finished and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound”!! Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29; Rev.10:6-7. “No one enters the Temple in heaven until the last Plague has emptied in the air” to indicate God’s long-suffering patience is exhausted: “God’s Day of wrath has come” and, with the 7th Trumpet, the execution of “God’s wrath has come”!!! Rev.15:8; Rev.11:18. [The last trump's decree that “wrath has come” anticipates its imminent execution].

Daniel uses the same form of presentation as John (Daniel 7:9-14 anticipates the same thing as Rev.7:9-14)! Each passage anticipates God’s wrath before the Court sits in Judgment in heaven’s Temple!! Just as Seal 7 and Dan.7 present the Court’s Judgment prior to Christ’s Coronation, so the Verdict of the Court and Christ’s Coronation anticipate and magnify the imminent destruction of the Beast!!!

The greatest intensity of God’s anger occurs as God sits on His throne, ablaze with fire over a crystal sea/river of fire in heaven (not in the Temple)! But this occurs only after His patience was finished” by the 7 last Plagues and the Temple opens for the Court’s Judgment and then for the Decree that "God's wrath has come"!! Rev.15:1-5; Dan.7:9-10. The Court renders Judgment (Rev.8:1-5; Dan.9:22) after the 7 last Plagues (Tribulation has ended); even though:

ONE: John describes the Verdict (Rev.8:5) 3 chapters before Christ’s Coronation;
TWO: John reveals “God's wrath has come” 8 chapters before the Beast and his armies are destroyed!!! Rev.11:15-18; Rev.19:15-21.

The anticipatory character of the Signs of that Day’s Wrath continues throughout the Book of Revelation until armies are gathered to Armageddon and Jesus extends His “Blessing to believers who watch” (Rev.16:15), with the Beast’s armies having filled the plains of Armageddon! [Rev.16:12-17 precede 6:12-17]. They will know the outpouring of God’s Cup of wrath awaits only the events in heaven and its Temple and that of all the Saints rejoicing in heaven!! Rev.7:1-8; Rev.14:1 to15:5; Rev.7:9 to 8:5; Rev.11:12-19; Rev.18:20 to19:11; Rev.16:18-21. "On that Day Christ begins ruling the nations with a rod of iron"!!! Zech.14:9; Rev.2:27; Rev.12:5; Rev.19:15.


Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller (Bolding by Ed): //The Day begins “after great tribulation;
in the days whenever time shall be no longer; the mystery of God
was finished and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound”!!//

Your 'day' and 'in the days' seem to contradict each other.
In reality day = days.
Somehow one needs to understand here that
'Day' means 'the appointed time'.
'Days' means 'the appointed time.

And if hour were used it means:
hour = 'the appointed time'.

Rev 10:6-7 (KJV1611 Edition):
And sware by him that liueth for euer and euer,
who created heauen, and the things that therein are,
and the earth, and the things that therein are,
and the sea, and the things which are therein,
that there should bee time no longer.
7. But in the dayes of the voice of the seuenth Angel,
when he shall begin to sound, the mysterie of God
should be finished, as hee hath declared
to his seruants the Prophets.

Your understanding of the phrase
'that there should bee time no longer'
seems poor.
'that there should bee time no longer' refers to
God's deadline having been met.
'that there should bee time no longer' does
not refer to the ceasing of time.

Indeed the phrase: "the mysterie of God
should be finished" show the meaning of:
'that there should bee time no longer' refers to
God's deadline having been met.

The clocks will keep on ticking as by the power of God
Almighty, Christ ushers in the
Earthly Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

 

[Mel Miller]

Quote:
___________________________________________________________________
Mel Miller (Bolding by Ed): //The Day begins “after great tribulation; in the days whenever time shall be no longer; the mystery of God was finished and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound”!!//
Ed Edwards responds:
“Your 'day' and 'in the days' seem to contradict each other. In reality day = days. Somehow one needs to understand that 'Day' means 'the appointed time'. 'Days' means 'the appointed time. And if hour were used it means 'the appointed time'”.
__________________________________________________________________

Ed, why do you keep insisting the “Day of God’s wrath” means “Days of God’s wrath”? Did Jesus mean the Day He comes requires multiple unknown Days “after the great tribulation”?? Does He “seem” to contradict Himself by meaning: "The Son of Man will come on unknown days AFTER the tribulation ends instead of an unknown Day AFTER" it ends???

Consistent with your argument, that the word “Day in reality means Days”, the word “Hour” means “Hours”…to fit your view that the “Hour of Trial” is another word for 7 years of tribulation! Based on your theory that the Day of Wrath = years BEFORE Christ comes, you cannot also claim this “Day in reality = the Days AFTER time shall be no longer”!! Since the Day of wrath occurs on an unknown day “AFTER the great Tribulation” ends; the “appointed Hour” for wrath cannot occur on unknown Days “BEFORE as well as AFTER” Christ comes!!!

The appointed “Kairos-Time” for Wrath occurs after “God’s mystery was finished; when the 1260 days of “Chronos-Time shall no longer” be subject to countdown! The 7th Trumpet is the appointed “Kairos-Time” for Resurrection, Rewards, Retribution and God’s Wrath…each subject to the “unknown last day” after the countdown of Chronos-Time ceases!! Your view destroys the promise of Christ’s coming on a single Day after the countdown of days of Chronos-Time ends!!!

You have sacrificed the interpretation of some Scripture to Sophism in my opinion! If Jesus did not mean He is coming on a single Day of God’s wrath; then you could say He did not mean He will “raise up every Believer on the Last Day” because the Last Day “in reality means Days”!! I don’t think you have ever given a satisfactory explanation of John 6:38-40,44,54!!!


Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Your view destroys the promise of Christ's coming on a single Day after the countdown of days of Chronos-Time ends!!!//

Exactly, it blows your doctrine right out of the water.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
But the day of the Lord will come as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away with
a great noise, and the Elements shall melt
with feruent heate, the earth also and the works
that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

This 'day of the Lord' is over 1,000 years long, if you
carefully read Revelation 20.

Mel Miller: //Ed, why do you keep insisting
the "Day of God's wrath" means "Days of God's wrath"? //


In God's economy:
hour = the appropriate time
hours = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
days = the appropriate time
month = the appropriate time
months = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time
years = the appropriate time
1,000 years = the appropriate time

In God's economy:
the blind see
the lame dance like deer
the poor are rich
the deaf hear
there is plenty of room in the family of God

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: // If Jesus did not mean He is coming on a single Day of God’s wrath; then you could say He did not mean He will “raise up every Believer on the Last Day” because the Last Day “in reality means Days”!!//

No. You are wrong.

Jesus said He would come again as the appropriate time.
John said Jesus would bring God's wrath at the
appropriate time.

-----------------------------------
Comparing two earthquates (rev 6 & rev 16)

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”//

Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period.

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out of the Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the weight of a talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

While the Revelation 6 earthquake is like a magniture 7.0 earthquake
one million places on earth at the same time
(force 13.0) the Revelation 16 earthquake is at least
1,000 times worse (force 16.0).

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners
----------------------------------------------

 

[Mel Miller]

Quotes from Ed Edwards:
_______________________________________________________________________
“Oops, this (Rev.6) isn't parallel to the 2nd Advent of Jesus event (Matt. 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matt.24:31). It describes what STARTS the Tribulation Period.The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation 16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR 'wrath of God'.

"The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation 16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

"Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners".
______________________________________________________________
Ed,

Equating the Lamb’s “Day of Wrath” with the 7-Year Trib and then God’s “Day of Wrath” with history’s greatest quake “near the end of the Trib” cannot be supported! Your attempted support denies the aftershocks of the “great earthquake” of Seal Six may "complete moving the mountains and islands out of place"!! It all occurs ON THE SAME SOLAR DAY that sees the mountains and cities disappear while islands complete a total movement from their original places to join their respective main-lands.

You limit God’s power based on a theory that Matt.24:31 is a Pre-Trib Rapture and that Matt.24:30 occurs 7 years after verse 31! Your sophisticated theory changes “after the Tribulation” to mean “before the Tribulation”!! You deprive the words of Jesus of their natural simplicity by assuming His word “day seems to contradict” His word about what happens “in the days after the tribulation”!!!

Your reference in Post #30 to “my use of `day and in the days of’ … as seeming to contradict each other” are not my words but the holy words of Jesus! Your theory says that “somehow one (even Jesus?) needs to understand that `Day and Days' mean DIFFERENT appointed times”!! You assume the “Day of Wrath” in Rev.6 is only the Lamb’s wrath (“light wrath”) to start the Tribulation and God’s “wrathier wrath” in Rev.16 means there are TWO appointed times separated by years, TWO kinds of wrath and TWO Days of wrath...one for God and one for the Lamb!!!

You are the originator of a sophistry that forces “years” after the “great quake” of Rev.6:12; making it “1000 times less powerful than that of Rev.16:18”! The great quake of Rev.11:13, just before the 7th Trumpet sounds on the last day, is one of several aftershocks shortly after Rev.6:12…aftershocks of the same “great quake” mentioned at the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet and 7th Plague!! I submit that God begins to move mountains and islands out of place and creates the giant Tsunamis and hearts failing from fear of Luke 21:25 on the same Day Christ is revealed in great glory to “gather all the Saints from earth to heaven”!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel,

I find it singularly unconvincing that John wrote the book of The Revelation in such a chronologically jumbled and "hyperlinked" manner as you seem to teach. Why would John just not present a chronology of events rather than Rev 6 coming after Rev 16? This is most disturbing! It indicates that your message is more important than John's.

I find the chronological framework of The Revelation to be 1-2-3-4-5-6-8-9-13-16-19-20-21-22 with chapt 7-10-11-14-15-17-18 being only partly linked into the chain of events in their order of mention. Your jumping back and forth based on "word clues" is not unifying of either scriptural truth nor of the body of Christ.

skypair

______________________________________________________________

Skypair,
Word "clues" are only a small part of Keys for seeking to understand Revelation.

My message recognizes that John placed the 7th Trumpet's three R's "in the days after time is no longer, the mystery of God was finished; and whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"! Rev.10:6-7. That Trumpet is the "appointed time" for Resurrection and Rewards to Prophets and Saints and for Retribution by God's Wrath on the "destroyers of earth"!! There's no way to "destroy" them prior to being "gathered to armageddon" for the slaughter described in Rev.19:15-21!!!

In the October thread on “When will the Temple Open in Heaven”, I responded to your similar question on the order. I don’t recall that you answered me. I wrote:

“Christ is made King in Dan.7:14 and Rev.11:15-17 “on one of the days” after the Beast persecutes the Saints for the same 42 months of Rev.13:5-7! That’s why the description of God’s great anger (Rev.14:19-20 with armies reaped and their blood not yet trodden, but ready to be trodden until it flows to horses’ bridles)!! This is immediately followed by the “great and wonderful sign” to show that God’s great and wonderful deeds had been finished by the Plagues because they had “exhausted His anger” and that anger is about to ignite His wrath after the events in the OPEN Temple in heaven!!! Rev.15:1,5 (Rev.7:9-Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19).

Daniel “keeps looking” until He sees the Ancient of Days sitting in judgment on the Beast. God's “great anger, while sitting on a blazing throne over a sea/river of fire”, in Daniel 7 as well as Rev.15, occurs before He actually sits in Judgment. The Books open in Dan.7:9-10 but the Court sits in verse 22 after describing the Son of Man being presented to the Ancient of Days and declared King of the earth. The order is not sequential by the verse structure just as it is not sequential in the chapters of Revelation.

The Son of Man must be “presented to the Ancient of Days” by the Martyrs and the 144,000 singing their songs of Moses and the Lamb in Rev.15…before the Temple opens in heaven (Rev.14:2-5; Rev.15:2-5; Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5)! Before the actual review of the evidence from “the Books”, Seal 7 opens the Scroll to the inner “review” of six of the 7 Trumpet Judgments that have already passed by!! The Temple opens after the last Plague empties in the air but before the Coronation occurs and heaven announces that God’s wrath has come and with that “wrath” the 3 R’s: Resurrection of the Dead; Rewards to the Righteous and Retribution upon the wicked because "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.11:18.

"No one enters the temple until the last Plague empties in the air and the smoke of God's glory and power" clears from the Temple! God's long patience will at last be exhausted in the seven last Plagues!! Rev.15:1,8. Christ receives authority to take the Kingdoms of earth at the 7th Trumpet, on the Day of Wrath, the Day of God’s Vengeance!!! Dan.7:14; Rev.11:15-18; 2 Thess.1:7-10. (End of Quote).

Whether you respond now or not, you have not given a logical explanation of why Jesus stated the Signs of His coming will occur on one of the Days “after the great tribulation”! Nor acknowledged that He, personally, “will gather the Elect from earth to heaven and send the angels to complete the gathering from all extremities of the heavens”!! Not one of the Pre-Trib defenders, to my knowledge, accepts
Jesus' promise to “raise every/all believer(s)" on no day except the "last day”!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Your reference in Post #30 to "my use of `day
and in the days of' . as seeming to contradict each
other" are not my words but the holy words of Jesus!//

I realise they are the words of Jesus as do you.

Mel Miller: //Your theory says that "somehow one
(even Jesus?) needs to understand that `Day and Days'
mean DIFFERENT appointed times"!!//

So it is really said that you don't understand the words
of Jesus.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/day
says for day:
...
8. a time considered as propitious or opportune: His day will come.
...
10.Often, days. a particular time or period: the present day; in days of old.
...
26 meanings.

All I'm saying is that Jesus probably ment a common
meaning of 'day' and 'days' in these passages.

Mel Miller: //Not one of the Pre-Trib defenders, to my knowledge,
accepts Jesus' promise to “raise every/all believer(s)"
on no day except the "last day”!!! //

Every Pre-trib to a man (and the women also) believes
Jesus promise to raise every/all/each believer on a day.
The day, is a seven year period each half of which is
spoken of 6 times in scripture:
5 times in the book of Revelation alone

3½-years = 1260 days = time(1), times(2) and half a time (½)

BTW, how do you figure God is limited to a 12 hour
day? Can't an Almighty Creator of the Universe do everything
He needs to do in an 8-hour work shift?

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Edwards
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"Every Pre-trib to a man (and the women also) believes Jesus promise to raise every/all/each believer on a day. That `day' (in Ed's response to the meaning of `last day') is a seven year period each half of which is spoken of 6 times in scripture: 5 times in the book of Revelation alone.

3½-years = 1260 days = time(1), times(2) and half a time (½).

"How do you (Mel) figure God is limited to a 12 hour day? Can't an Almighty Creator do everything He needs to do in an 8-hour work shift"?
____________________________________________________________
Ed,
In your Dictionary quote for the meaning of "day" you fail to include a specific reference to a solar day of 12 hours or one of 24 hours. I have chosen "12-Hour-Day" because Genesis divides the "Day" from the "Night" and because those who are warned by Jesus not to leave the place of work in the fields obviously do not start their "work-day" 24 hours before Christ appears on the "Day of Vengeance to deliver all who believe and
to destroy all who disobey the Gospel"! 2 Thess.1:7-10.

Whatever happens during 12-Hours from 6 AM to 6 PM may be observed as happening at the same time during the other 12 hours on the opposite side of the earth to satisfy your demand to identify "Day" as 24-Hours!!

But then you clothe the words "last day" with sophistry by replacing its simple meaning to that of YOUR 2 separate periods of "3 1/2 years that (according to your own words) seem to contradict `day with days'!!!

Ed, can't you actually admit your sophistry by saying "my`day' seems to contradict `in the days of' "; thus accusing Jesus of confusing an "unknown `DAY' among the `days' after the great tribulation" WITH the days of a 7 year-period prior to His coming?

Does Jesus even hint that the Day "no man knows" lasts for 7 years?? Or does He mean what He said, i. e., that the "unknown day will occur on one of the days AFTER the great tribulation"??? Matt.24:29,36. [Here you
are insisting that Matt.24:30 is Post-Trib and Matt.24:31 is Pre-Trib]!

Maybe it's against your will to admit Jesus was speaking of a single day to "raise up every believer and gather the elect from earth to heaven after the tribulation...on the last day"! Maybe you are dead-set on insisting the word "AFTER (Matt.24:29) means BEFORE" (in reference to Matt.24:31) and the words "last day" mean 7 years divided into two equal periods!! That would explain why you resist the possibility that the word "day" could be ONE of the "days" for the signs that herald the "any-moment" coming and Presence of Christ with armies already gathered to Armageddon!!!

Almighty God doesn't even need an "8-hour work day" to destroy earth's
cities and mountains and displace the islands with the force of giant
Tsunamis and aftershocks of the "great quake" of Rev.6:12, Rev.11:13
and Rev.16:18! You would limit His power by requiring 7 years to execute His wrath!! Your watered-down version of two "Days of Wrath", one of soft wrath by the Lamb and another of wrathier wrath by God 7 years later, makes me wish you could see that ONE 12-HOUR DAY encompasses God's AND the Lamb'S Wrath on Paul's single "DAY of Vengeance"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

My message recognizes that John placed the 7th Trumpet's three R's "in the days after time is no longer...

Which most acknowledge to mean "let there be no more delay" -- cause you realize there still will be "time" even after Armageddon, right?

..., the mystery of God was finished;

What is the mystery of God?

... and whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"! Rev.10:6-7. That Trumpet is the "appointed time" for Resurrection and Rewards to Prophets and Saints and for[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] Retribution by God's Wrath on the "destroyers of earth"!!

Except doesn't Mt 13:39-42 tell us that the "tares" are gathered FIRST - before the resurrection and reward (Mt 13:43 = Dan 12:2)?? Doesn't Mt 24/Retribution come before Mt 25/Reward. Doesn't Rev 19/Armageddon come before Rev 20/Reward??

The only reason you really want to see it in your 3 R's order (per Rev 10) is to prove the prewrath rapture, right? But if you see the order like I show you, you would (MAYBE) see the resurrection of the OT saints (prophets and saints) postrib to earth just as the citations I gave you would have it.

There's no way to "destroy" them prior to

being "gathered to armageddon" for the slaughter described in Rev.19:15-21!!!

Quite obvious, my man.

In the October thread on “When will the Temple Open in Heaven”, I responded to your similar question on the order. I don’t recall that you answered me. I wrote:

“Christ is made King in Dan.7:14 and Rev.11:15-17 “on one of the days” after the Beast persecutes the Saints for the same 42 months of Rev.13:5-7! That’s why the description of God’s great anger (Rev.14:19-20 with armies reaped and their blood not yet trodden, but ready to be trodden until it flows to horses’ bridles)!! This is immediately followed by the “great and wonderful sign” to show that God’s great and wonderful deeds had been finished by the Plagues because they had “exhausted His anger” and that anger is about to ignite His wrath after the events in the OPEN Temple in heaven!!! Rev.15:1,5 (Rev.7:9-Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19).

Not sure that is the real imagery of the tabernacle in heaven. To me, smoking temple that no one can enter repesents the one on earth that willis be cleansed and filled by God (as were the previous temples in their dedication/consecration) just prior to Messiah's coming.

To me the imagery is that by the vials, the earthly temple will be cleansed - that is, believing Israel allowed to return to Jerusalem and revive temple worship at the end of the trib per Dan 8:14. So the vials are against Satan and his kingdom to let Israel return from Petra to Jerusalem which is why the last war, Armageddon, is over Jerusalem. I mean, how else does Satan even let believing Israel live after midtrib much less return to Jerusalem??

skypair

 

[skypair]

[/FONT][/COLOR]Daniel “keeps looking” until He sees the Ancient of Days sitting in judgment on the Beast. God's “great anger, while sitting on a blazing throne over a sea/river of fire”, in Daniel 7 as well as Rev.15, occurs before He actually sits in Judgment.

Not sure how you equate these. To me, Rev 15 is merely the angels who represent the earthly living saints preparing to enter the earthly kingdom/heavenly tabernacle through the cleansing fires/trib. They sing the same song as the 144,000 in Rev 14 because the 144,000 too will live through the trib. I don't see any "judgment" in Rev 15.

The Books open in Dan.7:9-10 but the Court sits in verse 22 after describing the Son of Man being presented to the Ancient of Days and declared King of the earth. The order is not sequential by the verse structure just as it is not sequential in the chapters of Revelation.

Well, Dan 7:22 is the interpretation of Dan 7:9-10 so I wouldn't find anything different by reading the one than the other. This is quite clearly (to me) postrib judgment, right?

The Son of Man must be “presented to the Ancient of Days” by the Martyrs and the 144,000 singing their songs of Moses and the Lamb in Rev.15…before the Temple opens in heaven (Rev.14:2-5; Rev.15:2-5; Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5)! Before the actual review of the evidence from “the Books”, Seal 7 opens the Scroll to the inner “review” of six of the 7 Trumpet Judgments that have already passed by!! The Temple opens after the last Plague empties in the air but before the Coronation occurs and heaven announces that God’s wrath has come and with that “wrath” the 3 R’s: Resurrection of the Dead; Rewards to the Righteous and Retribution upon the wicked because "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.11:18.

I see where you are trying to make this fit - Rev 14-15 being the rapture = Rev 7:9 but I don't see judgment in any of these. I only see you bringing in judgment from Dan 7 and there it is postrib!

Doesn't my thought about the earthly saints represented by angels going through the fires of the trib into the tabernacle of the MK make more sense??

"No one enters the temple until the last Plague empties in the air and the smoke of God's glory and power" clears from the Temple! God's long patience will at last be exhausted in the seven last Plagues!! Rev.15:1,8. Christ receives authority to take the Kingdoms of earth at the 7th Trumpet, on the Day of Wrath, the Day of God’s Vengeance!!! Dan.7:14; Rev.11:15-18; 2 Thess.1:7-10. (End of Quote).

Isn't it more true that no one enters the MK until the last 7 plagues?

Whether you respond now or not, you have not given (1) a logical explanation of why Jesus stated the Signs of His coming will occur on one of the Days “after the great tribulation”! (2) Nor acknowledged that He, personally, “will gather the Elect from earth to heaven and send the angels to complete the gathering from all extremities of the heavens”!! (3) Not one of the Pre-Trib defenders, to my knowledge, accepts
Jesus' promise to “raise every/all believer(s)" on no day except the "last day”!!!

OK, I assume you are saying that I haven't explained Mt 24:31 to you. Is that it?

1) It is obvious that Christ sign (I assume you mean "cosmic disturbances") appears after, at the end, of the GT. And then He returns to earth. This is NOT the rapture because if He is not coming to Armageddon, where then is Armageddon??

2) Mt 24:31 says that angels gather -- "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." You must be reading into the text the prewrath rapture cause I don't see Christ gathering anyone here. Only in 1Thes 4:16-17 which text is followed by 1Thes 5 -- the "day of darkness"/tribulation.

3) Raise every believer on the one "last day?" I believe between the OT and NT there came to be a different expectation of "the last day" as testified, for example, by Martha in John 11:24. The Jewish belief assumed that Messiah would come only one time to raise all the dead as if Israel would accept Him at His coming. Well, they didn't -- so "last day" came to mean "last day"/1000 years of creation. Thereby, all Israel will be raised within 1000 years of each other -- some to everlasting life postrib (Rev 20:4) and some to everlasting shame postMK (Rev 20:11).

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Which most acknowledge to mean "let there be no more delay" -- cause you realize there still will be "time" even after Armageddon, right?
______________________________________________________________
Skypair, you and I see a lot in common with respect to the fact that the
armies must be gathered to Armageddon to fulfill the "collecting" of Tares to the Winepress before Jesus sends the angels to "gather the Wheat"!
You do realize this fact below by acknowledging the Mystery of God was finished...yet there remains the "delay" of 3 1/2 days while armies finish
their invasion of Israel after the Beast kills the Two Witnesses.

Actually, there is indeed a short "DELAY"! The countdown of 1260 days of "Chronos-Time" ends when "God's Mystery was finished" (Aorist Indicative) because God's long-suffering patience also was finished (Aorist Indicative)
by the 7 last Plagues! Rev.10:7 and Rev.15:1 are the only references in the New Testament for "completing God's Mystery at the 7 last Plagues!! The reference in Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 stating that "after these things, I looked and behold..." refers to the Drama in Heaven's Temple which opens for the Praise of the Martyrs (7:9-14), Prayers of the Saints (8:1-5) and
Portents of the Wrath of the 7th Trumpet where it says the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN WAS OPEN!!! Rev.11:19.

"No one can enter the Temple in HEAVEN" after "Chronos-Time" ends until the 7th Plague empties in the air and God decrees: "It is Done"! This alone forces the TARES to finish being gathered to Armageddon before Jesus sends three Angels to "collect them to the Winepress" and on that day sends many Angels to "gather the WHEAT" from earth to heaven!! Then, with armies in place and having been "reaped" by the Son of Man and "collected" by the Angels, Jesus "destroys the wicked on the last day"!!! ______________________________________________________________

You asK: "What is the mystery of God? Except doesn't Mt 13:39-42 tell us that the `tares' are gathered FIRST - before the resurrection and reward (Mt. 13:43 = Dan 12:2)?? Doesn't Mt 24/Retribution come before Mt 25/Reward. Doesn't Rev 19/Armageddon come before Rev 20/Reward"??
______________________________________________________________
Yes, indeed, "collecting Tares" is the "Mystery that must be finished" even though it occurs on the same last DAY as that of "gathering the wheat"!
The wheat must be "gathered together above" to receive their Rewards!!
The 1000-Yr-Reward at Rev.20:4; Rev.25 follow the First Resurrection!!!
______________________________________________________________
You Observe:
"If you see the order like I show you, you would (MAYBE) see resurrection of the OT saints (prophets and saints) postrib to earth just as the citations I gave you would have it. Quite obvious, my man".
______________________________________________________________
The 7th Trumpet comes after the 3 1/2 days of DELAY for three things: One: "The Temple was Open" for the Coronation of Christ! Rev.11:19. Two: The Witnesses rise up to join the Martyrs at the Tribunal of Seal 7!!
Three: The Verdict of the Angel of Fire, Rev.8:5, will immediately result in the Coronation of Christ and the announcement of the "appointed time" for Resurrection, Rewards and Retribution; for "God's wrath has come"!!!
______________________________________________________________
You Continue:
"Not sure that is the real imagery of the tabernacle in heaven. To me, smoking temple that no one can enter repesents the one on earth that will be cleansed and filled by God (as were the previous temples in their dedication/consecration) just prior to Messiah's coming".
______________________________________________________________
The smoke continues in the Temple of Heaven because of God's long patience even toward Beast-Worshipers who have the option to "repent"
during the 5th Trumpet Judgment and 4th and 5th Plagues! They refuse to repent and continue to blaspheme God!! The "smoke" represents the heat
of God's anger which reaches its highest intensity moments before the Temple Opens in Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 "after these things occurr"!!!
______________________________________________________________
Your Conclusion:
"To me the imagery is that by the vials, the earthly temple is cleansed - that is, believing Israel allowed to return to Jerusalem and revive temple worship at the end of the trib per Dan 8:14. So the vials are against Satan and his kingdom to let Israel return from Petra to Jerusalem which is why the last war, Armageddon, is over Jerusalem. I mean, how else does Satan even let believing Israel live after midtrib much less return to Jerusalem"?? skypair

______________________________________________________________
Vials had "completed, exhausted, God's patience"! Aorist Ind. Rev.15:1. They also had "finished demonstrating that God's deeds are holy and just" as stated by an angel out of the Altar in the Temple during the 4th Plague and repeated in triumph by the Martyrs in the Song of Moses!! Rev.16:7; Rev.15:3. God's Wrath is not even announced as "having come" until the
Angel of Fire renders the Verdict in the Tribunal of Seal 7 and the Angel of
the 7th Trumpet proclaims that God has begun to Reign, Christ is crowned King of kings and the "Appointed Time has come" for the three R's!!!

The Jews will be prepared to accept Messiah by the preaching of the Two Prophets! But the Temple on earth is not yet ready to be cleansed as the Jews will not "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man" until they see Him appearing with millions who "pierced" Him and that causes them to "mourn" and be begging to "be kept alive"!!! Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Luke 21:28,31,36; Luke 17:30-33.

Skypair, Thank you for the interesting exchange!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net