Seeking truth about "tongues"...

[The Biblicist]

I'm sorry, but you have demonstrated again your total lack of _________.
If there was no P&W mentioned, how could there be P&W avec tongues mentioned?
Again, you are not qualified to impress intellectuals.
To deal with them, you must be spiritual and intellectual both.
.

Now this is a jewel of a conversation!!!:thumbs::tonofbricks:

 

[awaken]

I have explained these verses many times, but you have never successfully refuted the explanation.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--This is not permission to speak or pray to God. It says not to. It is a rebuke. It simply says that God understands all languages. It is saying that God understands when you speak in a language and you have no interpreter. Don't do it. It won't edify anyone but yourself and only God understands, so don't do it. It is not permission to do it; it is a rebuke.

The rebuke is in the church! Do not speak in tongues in church without the interpretation. You add to it! He did not!

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--Paul never condones anything that is unfruitful. This is condemnation not condoning prayer. If one is praying in another language and only the human spirit is praying then don't do it because it is unfruitful. It is wrong. It is sin. There is no interpreter. There is no edification.

No, he is not! he is saying in church do not speak in tongues without the interpretation. He says later "forbid not to speak in tongues"

--Speaking in other language is not mentioned.
Prayer in the spirit with understanding, singing in the spirit with understanding are the two things that are mentioned here.
From A.T. Robertson, Greek scholar:

Are you not the one that corrected a post not to far back on the word "AND"...meaning two different prayers..meaning Both praying in the spirit AND with understanding. Praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14 is clear on that! Your spirit prays when you speak in tongues!

It is not speaking of the Holy Spirit. The KJV translators are not wrong. They use a small "s" to indicate the human spirit.

When someone speaks in tongues it is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance. Read Acts 2!

Forbid not to speak in tongues (in the first century). Speaking in tongues have ceased. You demonstrate that in your own life. If you could speak in other languages you would be able to tell me the languages that you speak in. But you can't. For all I know you could be worshiping the devil instead, as in the example I gave you.

I trust the Word over your misinterpretation! It is amazing how many time you ignore vs. 13 in order to make that statement.

Obviously some were calling Jesus accursed by another spirit. Paul doesn't write in vain. The Holy Spirit put those words there for a purpose.
And they did receive the Holy Spirit. But the message of Peter was about salvation. The promise of Jesus was only directed to the 12. He promised them (as they obeyed his command to wait in Jerusalem) that he would send THEM, the Holy Spirit. Peter promised the rest of the Jews, salvation, if they would believe on Christ. That was the promise he gave them.
What should the Jews do.
Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins....(Acts 2:38).

You have to be kidding! Now you are saying no one but the apostles can be baptized in the Holy Spirit! Yet in Acts 10, 8 and 19 others received the Spirit upon just like they did in Acts..with speaking in tongues!

The demons behind the idols are not dumb. They do speak in tongues.
Yes the Holy Spirit says that Christ is Lord; but demons don't. That is the meaning of the passage. Learn it.

NO, I will take the scriptures as written without your additions!

However, many of the unsaved do speak in tongues. It is a heathen practice noted in many pagan religions of the world.
Because the Scripture does not testify to it. Only the twelve (possibly the 120 but unlikely) spoke in tongues. And that is all. The 3,000 did not speak in tongues. You can't get that out of the passage. That is eisigeses. You might as well teach that they got saved when they were baptized as the RCC does. Your misinterpretation of doctrine doesn't make it true.

Well you forget the Gentiles...and the disciples Paul met in Ephesus.

If one has the gift he doesn't need an interpreter. An interpreter was needed in the church at Corinth, probably for the sake of the Jews for tongues was a sign for the Jews. Those that had the gift could understand what they were saying. The very fact that you don't understand this underscores the fact that you don't have the gift.

OK..that makes sense! They understood what they were saying but go ahead and pray for the interpretation anyway! Really!

God doesn't understand gibberish, and not even God can interpret gibberish. No one, not even God can interpret a non-existent language. You don't speak a language. If you did, you would be able to tell me what language it is.

Wrong for the hundreth time! God sees the heart without you opening your mouth! You have proven you have no idea what tongues are! You can go ahead and tear out verse 13 out of your Bible...you ignore it anyway!

 

[awaken]

Stop using "tongue" and start using "dialect" and your imaginary doctrine will disappear.

Either way..praying in the spirit is tongues! Tongues is just one of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

There is no understanding whenever someone speaks a foreign dialect in which they have had no training or when an audiance hears a foreign dialect in which they have had no training. That is the context! Look at the context for pete's sake and it tells you that clearly - vv. 6-11. So 1 Cor. 14:2 make perfect sense in such a context.

Yes! it is plain that speaking in tongues is speaking to God! Confirmed in vs. 28 speak to God! Blessing in the spirit is also speaking to God.

If I came into your house and spoke Dutch and neither you nor I were trained in Dutch that would be the gift of dialects. Whatever I said, whether it was praying, singing, preaching, prophesyin in Dutch would be known only to God. However, Paul forbids us to do this personally or publically without understanding because it profts NOBODY including the speaker. We have proven this in the context and you could not respond. Now, you wait a little while and start back repeating the same nonsense.

First your example is wrong from the start because tongues are not to communicate man with man but with God. vs. 2. THe interpretation is for the church to know how to say "amen" to your PRAYER! I believe PRAYER is speaking to God!

No, you need to learn how to study scripture in context as you are jerking whatever you like out of context and making a doctrine as you go! Stop using the term "tongue" and use "dialect" and a fourth of your nonsense will disappear. Acknowledge that 1 Cor. 14:1-12 is in a church context where only the exercise of gifts where EVERYBODY understands is demanded and another fourth of your nonsense will disappear. Acknowledge that when this is violated and neither speaker or hearer understand the particular foreign dialect being spoken and only God understands the dialect then another fourth of your nonsense will disappear. Finally acknowledge that Paul using the personal pronoun "I" providing his own example refuses to personally speak in tongues without understanding and all your nonsense disappears (1 Cor. 14:13-19).

I like using the term that the Bible uses! Does that bother you? I have shown in context of the whole chapter that not once is praying in the spirit/speaking to God/blessing/giving thanks speaking to people but to God! We are to interpret what is said so the others can say amen to our prayer!

We have just proven that "with" and "in" do not support your doctrine of a special prayer dialect but equally apply to any prayer in any dialect under the leadership of the Spirit simply because to be UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE SPIRIT your spirit is the means through which the Spirit operates through whatever you say or do!!!!! So you are no more edified in praying "in the Spirit" than anything else you say or do "in the Spirit."

Really? Jude says that I am and so does vs. 4! I will take Pauls definition of "praying in the spirit." Paul uses "I" all through chapter 14! He is even thankful that he speaks in tongues more than all! But not in the church! He would rather speak in HIS UNDERSTANDING! I think that is a contrast...speaking in tongues must not be understood by Paul...but speaking in words with MY UNDERSTANDING can be understood. Now if Paul knew what he was saying it would be easy to speak in tongues and translate it for the church...but that is not what he said! He would rather speak in a language that HE HIMSELF understands so he can teach! Because tongues is not used for teaching.

 

[DHK]

You are the one that brought up the dumb idols! I never said they thought they would speak to them. I said Paul said they are dumb idols!

Yes, that was your silly defense.
Tell me then, what was Paul's purpose in writing this verse to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

 

[DHK]

Really? Jude says that I am and so does vs. 4! I will take Pauls definition of "praying in the spirit."

Jude says absolutely nothing about praying in tongues; nothing at all.
Prove that he does:

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

There is nothing there about speaking in another language (the gift of tongues).
Do an exposition of the text and show that that is the meaning.

 

[The Biblicist]

Either way..praying in the spirit is tongues! Tongues is just one of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

That is foolishness, as that means Jesus Christ and all God's saints prior to the gift of dialects could not pray in the Spirit. That means all prayers not done by tongues is in the flesh. The Bible only provides two alternatives for everything done - it is either done "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" - there is no third alternative.

It is also foolish because the only reason for even the possibility of your doctrine is to claim a superior spiritual way to pray. Otherwise it serves no purpose any better than praying "in the Spirit" by English.

First your example is wrong from the start because tongues are not to communicate man with man but with God. vs. 2. THe interpretation is for the church to know how to say "amen" to your PRAYER! I believe PRAYER is speaking to God!

YOu pick exactly what God condemns (vv. 1-19) and ignore exactly what God defines the proper purpose of tongues is for (vv. 20-22).

I like using the term that the Bible uses! Does that bother you? I have shown in context of the whole chapter that not once is praying in the spirit/speaking to God/blessing/giving thanks speaking to people but to God! We are to interpret what is said so the others can say amen to our prayer!

It is pointless to go back over the same scriptures over and over again as the only thing you have proved is that you know how to twist, ignore, jerk and pervert the Word of God to suit your own purposes.

 

[Don]

Should all Christians pray in languages?

Think this was missed in the middle of all the other postsm

 

[awaken]

Yes, that was your silly defense.
Tell me then, what was Paul's purpose in writing this verse to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Start a new thread and I will!

 

[awaken]

Jude says absolutely nothing about praying in tongues; nothing at all.
Prove that he does:

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

There is nothing there about speaking in another language (the gift of tongues).
Do an exposition of the text and show that that is the meaning.

Building yourselves up on your most holy faith! Sounds alot like vs. 4 in 1 Cor. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself! We can not edify others until we are build up ourselves. Kinda like charging yourself up like a battery.
Praying in the Holy Ghost sounds a lot like vs. 14...For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth!...What is it then? I will pray with the spirit!

 

[DHK]

Building yourselves up on your most holy faith! Sounds alot like vs. 4 in 1 Cor. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself! We can not edify others until we are build up ourselves. Kinda like charging yourself up like a battery.
Praying in the Holy Ghost sounds a lot like vs. 14...For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth!...What is it then? I will pray with the spirit!

Many of your arguments are based on your own patented definitions which you get from the KJV. For example, "The Manifestation." Take away the expression and you are lost. You don't know what to do without it. "He gives "the utterance." Another fancy word you have a patented definition. Define it correctly and within its context and again you are lost. (Have you made an application with the Patent office of America yet, for some of these?) Now you have your own definition for "praying in the spirit." And in doing so you have torched the meaning of Jude 1:20.

Take the verse in another translation, away from the KJV, and see how you do:

(CEV) Dear friends, keep building on the foundation of your most holy faith, as the Holy Spirit helps you to pray.
--Build on the foundation of your most holy faith.
How do you do that? It comes by the study of the word; by the fellowship of God's people; by prayer (in your own language); by witnessing to others; by the continual obedience to the commands of Christ.

--AS the Holy Spirit helps you to pray.
There is nothing about tongues here. The Holy Spirit helps all of us to pray. And that is not speaking in other languages. There is nothing in this verse about tongues.

 

[awaken]

Think this was missed in the middle of all the other postsm

I thought I addressed that!
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:17).
Who is left out in this scriptures? Those that do not believe!


Who do you see was left out on the day of Pentecost in the upper room?
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46)
Who was left out?

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:1-7)
Who was left out?

 

[awaken]

That is foolishness, as that means Jesus Christ and all God's saints prior to the gift of dialects could not pray in the Spirit. That means all prayers not done by tongues is in the flesh. The Bible only provides two alternatives for everything done - it is either done "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" - there is no third alternative.

How could they pray in the Holy Ghost if it was not given until after Jesus resurrected? When was the Spirit given to guide us into all truth? You forgot with understanding!

It is also foolish because the only reason for even the possibility of your doctrine is to claim a superior spiritual way to pray. Otherwise it serves no purpose any better than praying "in the Spirit" by English.

Not superior! But two ways with the spirit AND with the understanding. The Holy Spirit can guide us in our own understanding how to pray!

YOu pick exactly what God condemns (vv. 1-19) and ignore exactly what God defines the proper purpose of tongues is for (vv. 20-22).

He does not condemn tongues...he condems tongues without the interpretation in church! We are to pray in the spirit with the interpretation in church. If there is no interpretation we are to deep silent in church and speak between ourself AND GOD! Which confirms vs. 2 ... Tongues is speaking to God!

It is pointless to go back over the same scriptures over and over again as the only thing you have proved is that you know how to twist, ignore, jerk and pervert the Word of God to suit your own purposes.

I was thinking the same thing about your interpretation!

 

[awaken]

Many of your arguments are based on your own patented definitions which you get from the KJV. For example, "The Manifestation." Take away the expression and you are lost. You don't know what to do without it. "He gives "the utterance." Another fancy word you have a patented definition. Define it correctly and within its context and again you are lost. (Have you made an application with the Patent office of America yet, for some of these?) Now you have your own definition for "praying in the spirit." And in doing so you have torched the meaning of Jude 1:20.

I see you are the one that is having trouble with those words...why would you take them out of the written word of God?

Take the verse in another translation, away from the KJV, and see how you do:

(CEV) Dear friends, keep building on the foundation of your most holy faith, as the Holy Spirit helps you to pray.
--Build on the foundation of your most holy faith.
How do you do that? It comes by the study of the word; by the fellowship of God's people; by prayer (in your own language); by witnessing to others; by the continual obedience to the commands of Christ.

--AS the Holy Spirit helps you to pray.
There is nothing about tongues here. The Holy Spirit helps all of us to pray. And that is not speaking in other languages. There is nothing in this verse about tongues.

I agree he does not say that "praying in the spirit" will give you faith. Rom. 10: 17 tells us where faith comes from! We are to build on that faith! And the Spirit helps you by giving you the utterance as he did on the Day of Pentecost!

 

[Don]

I thought I addressed that!
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:17).
Who is left out in this scriptures? Those that do not believe!


Who do you see was left out on the day of Pentecost in the upper room?
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46)
Who was left out?

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:1-7)
Who was left out?

So Paul contradicts himself?

 

[awaken]

So Paul contradicts himself?

No, he is misinterpreted! I know what verse you are speaking of...so why don't you post it?

 

[Don]

No, he is misinterpreted! I know what verse you are speaking of...so why don't you post it?

The entirety of 1 Cor 12. Eph 4:11. By all means, please tell us how these are misinterpreted.