glfredrick
New Member
I will buy these two passages. I've used them myself as examples of true free human will. What is wrong with this as THE final picture of human free will, though? Anyone venture to guess?
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Semi-Pelagianism vs Arminianism
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
I will buy these two passages. I've used them myself as examples of true free human will. What is wrong with this as THE final picture of human free will, though? Anyone venture to guess?
glfredrick
New Member
Ah, come on... I'm giving you a chance to shut the door to Calvinism once and for all. Just bring Bible verses that are ONLY free will with no other possible interpretation.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I like that Amy, correct, it does not "rule out" the DoG approach. But neither does it rule it in either.
glfredrick....you seem to be on a mission, almost "upset" that others cannot or will not view either singular scriptures or the totality of revelation in light of DoG, why is that?
glfredrick
New Member
I have been reading post after post on the board where Arminians claim to have the Scriptural high ground. I'm just giving them a chance to show me. So far, crickets... :thumbs:
quantumfaith
Active Member
"Yet you refuse to come to me to have life" (John 5:40)
And therein lies the truth! Biblical soteriology is rejected, not because it isn't true, but because you don't like it. Deep down you want to think, some how, for some reason, you are better/smarter/more spiritual than your neighbor who heard the same gospel as you but did not get saved.
quantumfaith
Active Member
II Thessalonians 2:10
They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
quantumfaith
Active Member
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12)
Robert Snow
New Member
These discussions always end up being somewhat silly. You and I both know that we have all read the same verses over and over for years, yet we come up with different interpretations.
There is nothing in any of these threads that will ever change. We just see things differently. And, regardless of the number of times we say them, they will never change. After all, the church has been arguing these same points for decades.
Robert Snow
New Member
You have no idea what I like or don't like. I have read authors and set under preaching and teaching that feel the same way toward you that you feel toward me.
Deep down you want to think, some how, for some reason, you are better/smarter/more spiritual than your neighbor who heard the same gospel as you but did not get saved.
The height of arrogance is to say you know what someone thinks "deep down." You have no idea, so quit trying to impress me with you physic abilities before you look even more foolish.
I realize that teachers like Oliver B. Green, Harry Ironsides, Clarance Larkin, Chuck Missler, etc. don't impress you, but I hold them in high regards. These are the types of teachers I have listened to in the past. You are free to think whatever you want, I really don't care!
glfredrick
New Member
That does not specifically deal with free will as the subject of the sentence. It could be interpreted either way, for indeed WE do refuse to come to Him. We understand that from other texts, and that "God will draw to Himself..." The passage does not rule out a DoG perspective at all.
glfredrick
New Member
"He" is still first... And in cotext as we read the nte very next verse we discover (John 1:13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
glfredrick
New Member
No Robert... I'm going to hold your feet to the fire a bit here. I'd like to see the biblical evidence that you say is there.
You are correct that we all read the same verses (which, for you, is a MAJOR CONCESSION from your earlier position when you indicated that we persons of Calvinist persuasion did not even use the Scriptures!) and that we interpret them differently. I agree with that, and I actually said it first.
But here is your chance to give me a verse that is SOLIDLY free will -- with free will as the subject of the sentence perhaps -- that demonstrates that we Calvinists have the whole thing wrong.
Frankly, by this point in this portion of the debate, I am rather shocked that so few verses have come forth that lay out the free will position succinctly. With all the posturing of those who hold the free will doctrine, one would think that verses would be forthcoming.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I used to believe man had free will. I have since recanted that position in that I am not quite so convinced this is true. How did I conclude this? By taking an honest look at who God truly is in His Word, and in what dire need man is in, in his total incapability to even reach out to God. We needed God to do all of it. ALL of it. Scripture supports this, and this is what I did, I started to search the Scriptures. God even places the desires He wishes us to have, into our hearts.
It is all from Him and of Him.
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Well said pastor. My conversion statement was far more dramatic in that I rejected Him outright & you had to be a fool to follow Him. I was even raised by a faithful mother who insisted we go to church, but it didn't stick. To make it, and I desperately had to, I had to not believe or at least to think it was irrelevant to me. I was a bad guy & I lied & cheated & stole my way through life & it was profitable. Until he pursued me & when he goes after you you can bet He is coming back with you. He changed my heart, my life, my faith. Of course I could have still been obstinate & rejected Him but how could I? How do you look into the face of your God & say no? I could not. All I could do is Love Him & beg for forgiveness.
Today I am not that man I was....but I can tell you that if it were not for God & his pursuit of me & his changing my heart, that I would not be here.
glfredrick
New Member
Prove that I am wrong...
Surely you are smarter to know you cannot prove a negative. I already answered your fictitious claim, we don't believe free will trumps God's sovereignty.
You will simply do somersaults around any passage given to you as has already been demonstrated on this thread. It's kind of like Clinton asking for clarification on what "is" means. :laugh:
Prove that I didn't eat eggs this morning
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I agree that man left to himself could never come to God on their own. The issue is...did God leave some to themselves apart from ANY kind of reaching out? If He did, in His justice...how does He hold those He left to themselves accountable? If it's ALL God for salvation, it is also ALL God for reprobation. What do you do with Acts 17:26-27? Remember, Paul was talking to the pagans that had previously rejected God, not the "elect".preacher4truth said:
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Also, what you described in coming to your theology is the exact same thing I did in leaving it
quantumfaith
Active Member
You asked for views of scripture which seem to, could....etc point to man having the ability to reject God. This could be an exercise ad finitum, as we could, based on "our" (or sources we have studied and found credible) perception of scripture meaning and intent, continually debunk one another.