Semi-Pelagianism

[The Biblicist]

Michael, I could have asked you if you believe that God requires an impossibility from you, and if not what command is it that you do not believe you can follow and why? What is entire sanctification about other than simply obedience to the known will of God in a consistent manner?

"Without me ye can DO NOTHING" - Jn. 15:3

He is not talking to unbelievers but to his trusted apostles. He is talking to those unto whom he confessed that they should rejoice because their names were already written in heaven.

Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

The Lord has not chosen to give any of his unglorified servants FULL measure of the Holy Spirit or the FULL measure of faith or the FULL measure of grace here and now and that is exactly what it requires to live sinless like Christ who had the FULLNESS of the Spirit and FULL of grace and FULL of faith.

Sin in the life of the believer is determinately used by God to grow that person in grace and is nessary in the leraning and growing process of the Christian life. That does not mean that God approves of sin but he overules and uses it for our "good" as he does "all things" that are not consistent with His REVEALED will but nevertheless are permitted and used by Him ultimately for our good and His glory. It does mean that He purposely does not give us FULLNESS of His Spirit and FULLNESS of faith and FULLNESS of grace to consistently live a sinless life.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: and so to say that simply because we don't believe in the silly position that one is immediately saved from sin in all of its consequences, power and presence is to seriously pervert not only our position but a complete perversion of the scriptures.

HP: You bring up an interesting point. Can one say they are saved that has never felt and experienced the power of Christ breaking the yoke and bondage of sin in their lives? No one claims that one cannot fall prey to sin again, but if one has never been set free from sin, as Paul clearly states we are as believers, have they really experienced salvation? I would think not. If God did anything for me at salvation it was to free me from all past sins, breaking the yoke of bondage I was under and freeing me to live a live of holiness before Him. That is not to say that since that time I have never sinned, but simply there was a place and time I was freed from the bondage of all sin, I was given a new heart, and it should be the hope of every believer to continue to walk pure before Him in this present world.

Can one say they love God and desire to do any less?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The Lord has not chosen to give any of his unglorified servants FULL measure of the Holy Spirit or the FULL measure of faith or the FULL measure of grace here and now

HP: I believe that is a dangerous statement you are making, unsupported and at direct antipodes with Scripture.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Moriah]

It is hardly worth responding to you, because your presuppositions are based upon nothing better than budhism, hinduism, Catholicism which all are faith plus works salvation type religions. Yours is no different.

I have to respond to your false teachings, because they are false teachings.

Romans 10:17 says no such thing. The term used is "rhema" rather than "logos." Logos is the normal term for simply the "word" but rhema is distinguished from "logos" in that it incoporates the idea of the word expressed as a COMMAND. That "command" in regard to the gospel when it comes to a person in saving power is clearly stated by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 and likened unto Genesis 1:3 where God commanded light out of darkness. However, that is above your comprehension level so no need to say anything more.

You think translating English back to Greek is helping you to know the Truth; people who have been enlightened do not need to learn another language.

What an absolute falsehood! What a complete jerking a text out of its immediate context and forcing it into another text two chapters later. In context Paul is applying this EQUALLY to both Jews and Gentiles (v. 24). In context this is referring to all whom God will save as the potter over fallen mankind whether Jew or Gentile (v. 24).

You and Calvinists take a scripture you misunderstand and make a completely new religion out of it.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: You bring up an interesting point. Can one say they are saved that has never felt and experienced the power of Christ breaking the yoke and bondage of sin in their lives?

The problem is fourfold. First, you do not distinguish what aspect of your human nature has been freed from the power of sin and what aspect of your nature is being progressively saved from sin and what aspect of your nature will never be freed from the power of sin until the coming of Christ.

Second, you do not realize that it is Christ and Christ alone that frees you from the bondage and power of sin. If he had done this in regard to your complete or whole person you would never again fall into sin. He has not done this in regard to your whole person.

Third, the fact that you are to PROGRESSIVELY live holy unto the Lord demonstrates that PROGRESSIVELY you have not yet been completely delivered from the yoke and power of sin or else you would not need to strive against sin as you do not strive against foes who have already been conquered and vanished.

Fourth, you do not understand the PROGRESSIVE aspect of salvation or what aspect of your human nature is being progressively saved. You confuse it with the past tense. You do not distinguish between a completed positional/legal freedom versus a progressive battle with sin that you are still not freed from but are in fact still engaged with.

 

[DHK]

HP: Are you spamming the list?

There is no "list". Do you find it offensive to be asked the same question you ask of others?
I will ask it again of you (since you expect others to answer you):

What does the Lord require of you, HP?

BTW, "HP" is only one person, not many, not a list. I have only asked this of you.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have to respond to your false teachings, because they are false teachings.

You think translating English back to Greek is helping you to know the Truth; people who have been enlightened do not need to learn another language.

You and Calvinists take a scripture you misunderstand and make a completely new religion out of it.

These are about the best responses you can offer because your responses are not based upon any enlightenment by God's Word or His Holy Spirit but upon your own perceived subjective and prideful experiences that you wrongly regard as "enlightenment" when in reality they are but admissions of a darkened understanding. Hence, there can be no substantative dialogue, no objective discussions as you do not depend upon the Scriptures but upon yourself, your own metaphysical perceptions that in reality reinterpret the Word of God to suit your own speculative imagination.

 

[Moriah]

These are about the best responses you can offer because your responses are not based upon any enlightenment by God's Word or His Holy Spirit but upon your own perceived subjective and prideful experiences that you wrongly regard as "enlightenment" when in reality they are but admissions of a darkened understanding. Hence, there can be no substantative dialogue, no objective discussions as you do not depend upon the Scriptures but upon yourself, your own metaphysical perceptions that in reality reinterpret the Word of God to suit your own speculative imagination.

God says believe and obey. You say we cannot. I preach obedience to Christ. You preach manufactured doctrines.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: There is no "list". Do you find it offensive to be asked the same question you ask of others?

HP: No. I find it offensive for you to accuse me of spamming the list, and giving me a warning or an infraction on this Board, when I did nothing other than ask three separate individuals relatively the same question when all three were involved in the discussion with me. If my posts and questions were spam, so is yours to me.

It is not what the Lord requires of me, but what does the Lord require of any believer. Do your own homework and read the Scriptures. God is straight forward. He will tell you. The question is, are we listening and will we believe Him when He instructs us?

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: I believe that is a dangerous statement you are making, unsupported and at direct antipodes with Scripture.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Not one scripture you have furnished teaches that God provides the FULLNESS without measure of His Spirit, or the FULLNESS without measure of grace or the FULLNESS without measure of faith to any living believer. However, He gave the Son FULLNESS without measure of His Spirit and FULLNESS without measure of His grace and faith and that is why he lived sinless.

God has not done this for you. He gives you a "MEASURE" of faith (Rom. 12:3) an a "MEASURE" of grace (Rom. 12:7) because you are PROGRESSIVELY growing in grace and faith. He does not give you the Holy Spirit without measure but according to His good purpose to work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philip. 2:13) to accomplish the "good works" He had before ordained that you should walk in (Eph. 2:10).

There are no persons walking around on earth that are SINLESS in regard to their own complete condition as a person. We are still STRIVING against sin and we still need to continually lay aside the sin that doth so EASILY beset us (Rom. 12:1).

God has established within our being a NEW INWARD man that delights in the law of God and is created in true holiness and righteousness and is always willing to do that which is good (Rom. 7:15-25) but has no power to enforce its desire over indwelling sin, proving "without me ye can do nothing." Hence, progressive victory over sin is learning to be dependent upon Christ looking to Him and this is a progressive LEARNING process.

 

[Amy.G]

Do you go to a church building every day to encourage other Christians?

I go to church 3 times a week to fellowship with other Christians, be strengthened by them, be encouraged by them, to encourage them, to corporately worship God, to learn, and to serve.

Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

I have Christian friends that I encourage daily and they encourage me as well.

Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

So why do you disobey God's word to meet together as the body of Christ? Are you disabled?

 

[The Biblicist]

God says believe and obey.

That is correct! Belief comes first, obedience comes second. Belief has for its object the gospel whereas obedience has for its object the commandments of God. Belief in the gospel justifies us before God not obedience to the commandments of God.

So, I do not deny "believe and obey." I simply repudiate your spin on them making them inclusive of each other rather than in a cause and effect relationship. Faith in the gospel secures justification before God and obedience follows as the product of love not as a process of becoming saved.

 

[DHK]

HP: No. I find it offensive for you to accuse me of spamming the list, and giving me a warning or an infraction on this Board, when I did nothing other than ask three separate individuals relatively the same question when all three were involved in the discussion with me. If my posts and questions were spam, so is yours to me.

It is not what the Lord requires of me, but what does the Lord require of any believer. Do your own homework and read the Scriptures. God is straight forward. He will tell you. The question is, are we listening and will we believe Him when He instructs us?

I don't recall what incident you are talking about.
I simply am asking you the same question that you asked another poster.
You seem to be very easily offended this evening for some reason.

You ask others "What does the Lord require of thee?"
I fairly ask you to answer the same thing: "What does the Lord require of thee, HP?"

You can't answer the very question that you ask of others and expect them to answer?? Amazing!

 

[Moriah]

I go to church 3 times a week to fellowship with other Christians, be strengthened by them, be encouraged by them, to encourage them, to corporately worship God, to learn, and to serve.


I have Christian friends that I encourage daily and they encourage me as well.


So why do you disobey God's word to meet together as the body of Christ? Are you disabled?

From what I read from you about your religion on this board, you have helped no one in the Truth. IMHO.

 

[Moriah]

That is correct! Belief comes first, obedience comes second. Belief has for its object the gospel whereas obedience has for its object the commandments of God. Belief in the gospel justifies us before God not obedience to the commandments of God.

So, I do not deny "believe and obey." I simply repudiate your spin on them making them inclusive of each other rather than in a cause and effect relationship. Faith in the gospel secures justification before God and obedience follows as the product of love not as a process of becoming saved.

You are not explaining your beliefs with what you say here, you are misleading the reader into believing something about you that is not true; for you have stated many times on this board that you believe no one can do anything, not even believe in God without the Holy Spirit causing the belief.
As I said before, God says believe and obey. You say we cannot.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: So why do you disobey God's word to meet together as the body of Christ? Are you disabled?

HP: Yet another joins the list of false accusers of the brethren.

 

[Moriah]

HP: Yet another joins the list of false accusers of the brethren.

Yeah, I caught that too. They are so much alike.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: : Belief comes first, obedience comes second.

HP: You must have ignored the discussion on James. Belief is meaningless by itself, for devils can and do that,......without obedience that is. You are trying to separate something Scripture tells us plainly that cannot be separated.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Amy.G]

From what I read from you about your religion on this board, you have helped no one in the Truth. IMHO.

As is typical of you, you refuse to answer the question. You proclaim that you do not need to attend church even though the bible commands it, yet you accuse me of false religion and helping no one. You have no idea what I do for my church, yet you accuse me. Isn't this what you constantly call "accuser of the the brethren"?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Yet another joins the list of false accusers of the brethren.

Moriah stated that it is not necessary to attend church. Yet the bible clearly commands believers to assemble together. We are to worship God corporately, sing songs, psalms, edify one another. Exhort one another, teach and learn. God has appointed teachers but if everyone stays at home because they think they don't need to be taught, why did God appoint them and to WHOM did He appoint them?

I asked an honest question. But you are a sympathizer with Moriah because you also think you do not need to attend church. You are both in disobedience. That is the TRUTH.