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Septuagint - the Apostles Bible???

Jesus is Lord

New Member
Some people told me that the OT-Version the Apostles (and even Jesus?) used is the greek translation of the OT, the Septuagint.

If that is true. Why are we so excited about the Masoretic Text? We could use the same Bible the Apostles used???

I am really interested in what you think...

[ May 26, 2003, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Jesus is Lord ]
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
There are several translations labeled "Septuagint" or "LXX" (same meaning). The Alexandrian was a translation from paleo-Hebrew to classical Greek about a 250 years before Christ and done by Hebrew rabbis. Yes, it is the version quoted from by Christ and the writers of the New Testament.

The Masoretic text was a translation from paleo-Hebrew into modern Hebrew about 100 A.D., but the vowel points were omitted. They were added in about 900 A.D. on the basis of tradition.

The following is from some material of my husband's which I do not have up yet on his site. His research was extensive and I think you will find some help here:

B. THE SCRIPTURAL CHRONOLOGY USED IN THE 1ST CENTURY AD:

(1). THREE MAIN VERSIONS FROM ONE ORIGINAL TEXT:

(a). The Original And The Samaritan Pentateuch (SP).

From the time of Ezra and Nehemiah (about 440 BC1 until the Council of Jamnia (around 100 AD) there existed a 'Vorlage Text' of the Old Testament in PaleoHebrew. This Vorlage was essentially the original complete Old Testament Text. With time the Vorlage gave rise to three 'recensions'. The first of these was the Samaritan Pentateuch (SP), again in Paleo Hebrew, about 408 BC. Tobish the Ammonite allegedLy took a copy of the Law with him when he was cast out of the Temple by Nehemiah (13:4 9 and Ezra 4:1 4) and set up the rival system of worship in Samaria. This was essentially a copy of the Vorlage Pentateuch.

(b). The Septuagint Greek (LXX] Translation.

The second recension was the Septuagint Greek (LXX) which was translated from the Vorlage Text about 250 BC by 72 Jewish scholars in Alexandria. This version became necessary because of the number of Greek speaking Jews that were resident in Egypt under the favourable Ptolemaic Dynasty. It has been noted by most authorities that the LXX translation of the Vorlage Pentateuch was particularly carefully done because of its revered position in the canon.

(c). The Council Of Jamnia And The Masoretic Text [MT).

Finally the Masoretic Hebrew (MT) was re written in square 'modern' Assyrian characters at the Council of Jamnia around 100 AD with the vowel points added around 900 AD. In 'Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts', p.49 (Eyre and Spottiswoode, London), Sir Frederick Kenyon commented that this dual procedure could easily be 'one considerable source of corruption' in the MT.

(d). The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Council of Jamnia

The biblical Dead Sea scroll material can be clearly divided into two groups. There are 170 manuscripts from the 11 Qumran caves and fragments from Masada, all of which pre-date 70 A.D.. The second group comprise manuscripts from the desert caves in the Wadi Murabba'at, the Nahal Hever, and the Nahal Se'elim. They were hidden there shortly after 100 AD.

These two groups of scrolls show two distinct text types. Those pre-dating 70 AD have a text that agrees with both the LXX and the OT quotations used by Christ, the Apostles, and, indeed, the early Church Fathers. Those post-dating 100 AD have a text virtually identical with that translated in our present OT. The dividing line between text types was the Council of Jamnia around 100 AD.

(e). The Action Taken By The Council of Jamnia.

The Council of Jamnia is vital to this discussion. We quote Prof. Horn here: 'A unified text suddenly became the standard at the end of the first century and [the fact] that not one copy of a divergent text survived (except the Dead Sea scrolls that had already been hidden when Jamnia convened), indicate clearly that the Council of Jamnia must have taken actions in this matter.'

He went on to state, '...the Jews rejected it [pre-70 AD version and LXX since... it had become the Bible of the Christians.' Sir Frederick Kenyon concluded (op.cit., p. 56): 'In the second century of our Era, this repudiation took form in the production of a rival version.' All scholars agree that this 'rival version' was the Masoretic Text (MT) which, with some variations, has been used as the basis of our modern OT translations.

(f). The Masoretic Text And The New Greek Versions.

Sir Frederick then went on to point out that the standardised Masoretic Text spawned 3 Greek versions, namely that of Aquila, Theodotion and Symmachus. Then around 200 AD, Origen produced his Hexapla or sixfold version of the Old Testament. This version contained the above 3 Greek versions in parallel, plus the MT in Hebrew, the MT in Greek, and then the LXX as revised by Origen (This is NOT the Alexandrian LXX as we have it today).

Note that, except for the LXX, all 5 other versions in Origen's Hexapla were simply variations on the Masoretic text. Furthermore, as Sir Frederick noted on p. 58, '...Origen's efforts were not directed towards the recovery of the original form of the Septuagint LXX, but at bringing it into harmony with the Masoretic Hebrew Text then current, and to do this he introduced alterations into it with utmost freedom.'


With all other versions simply variations on the MT, Origen's 'doctoring' of the LXX to bring it into line with the MT was a serious matter. Fortunately, in the year 617AD, Bishop Paulus of Tella in Mesopotamia made a Syriac translation detailing Origen's alterations so that the form of the original LXX was preserved for us, and today it is still extant (This is referred to as the Alexandrian LXX).


(2). WHAT WAS IN THE VORLAGE TEXT?

The Vorlage Text is quoted in scrolls for Qumran and Masada written prior to Jamnia. After that Council the Jews used the new MT exclusively and destroyed all other versions. But Christ, the Apostles, and Josephus all quote from the Vorlage, and its LXX translation, as did the Church Fathers. In most matters, the differences between the texts are usually relatively minor. However the chronologies have some significant differences. It is just at this point that we need to know shat was in the Vorlage for our chronology.

On this chronological issue, then, it is crucial to note that the SP does NOT support the MT in Genesis 5 and 11. By contrast it fully supports the LXX in Genesis 11, and largely supports it in Genesis 5. This is important since the LXX and SP were two independent links with the Vorlage original, as they were not corrected from each other. From this result it is apparent that, for Genesis 5 and 11, the MT is more likely to be at variance with the Vorlage as quoted by Christ and the Apostles, than is the LXX and SP.
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
THANK YOU (and your hubby) for that clear and easy-to-follow presentation!
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Johnv

New Member
I'm not sure why Jesus would have used a Greek text, when it was the custom of the Jews to read the OT in Hebrew, not Greek. The Torah in the Temple was written in Hebrew. In addition, the common language amongst the Jews was Aramaic (a Hebraic language). When Jesus spoke to the masses, he would have spoken Aramaic, which would have been understood by both the Jews and Gentiles of the region.
 

Ransom

Active Member
Johnv said:

In addition, the common language amongst the Jews was Aramaic (a Hebraic language).

The common language of Jews in Judaea was Aramaic, but at the time Jews were spread all over the known world. Many of them did not even know Hebrew; Greek was probably the one language all Jews of the time had in common. Hence the perceived need for a translation of the Scriptures in the lingua franca of the day.
 

Johnv

New Member
You're absolutely right. I was seeing Jews through Judea-colored glasses ;)

What I was referring to was the Jews of Jesus' time and location, which was Judea. Jews in other regions spoke other languages, and did not always speak Hebrew. For example, there are several ancient OT copies that are in Arabic, that were used by the Arab speaking Jews.
 

garpier

New Member
I do not believe that Christ or His apostles used the LXX for the the following reasons.

1) Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

To my knowledge jots and tittles are characteristics of Hebrew, not Greek.

2)Matthew 23:35 "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteoous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."

The reference to Abel is obviously from the book of Genesis. The slaying of Zacarias is recorded in II Chronicles 24:20-21. What makes this significant is the Hebrew order of the Old Testament books. Genesis is the first and Chronicles is the last, unlike the order in our modern Bible or the LXX. Thus the Lord is making a reference to all of those who were martyred for their faith in the Old Testament from the first book to the last book.

3)Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning me."

On the road to Emmaus, the Lord used the terms which encompassed the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures. The law. (or Torah) the prophets (or Nabiim)and the Psalms (or Kethubim). This again is the order of Hebrew version of the OT or TaNaK, not our modern version or that of the LXX.

It should also be noted that the vowel pointing of the Masoretic text is not a settled issue. John Gill writing in the 18th century argued for their antiquity to the original text of the Old Testament. This is a view that was held by most Biblical scholars until undermined by the Higher Critics.

Having recently translated portions of Isaiah, I noticed the differences between the Masoretic Text (MT) and the LXX. For example in Isaiah 40:1, the LXX leaves out the pronoun "your" before God. In verse two the word priests is inserted in the LXX and is not found in the MT.
There are many other changes which are apparent.
It would seem that those who favor the LXX to correct the MT are guilty of the same sort of things they accuse Ruckman of doing with the KJV and the Greek Text.

Suffice it to say I don't believe that Christ or his Apostles used the LXX.
 

Johnv

New Member
To my knowledge jots and tittles are characteristics of Hebrew, not Greek.

Excellent supportive point. Thanks for bringing that up.
 

Pete Richert

New Member
Those are some good points. I might throw in though that the "order" of the LXX today is not nessisarily the "order" it was then.

The real issue though I think is Hebrews. Check out all of the scripture quotations. They almost always follow the LXX word for word when it differs from the MT.
 

garpier

New Member
Have you considered that maybe the LXX copied from Hebrews (which was written by inspiration)? I realize that some believe that the LXX was translated before the time of Christ, but as far as I know there is no concrete proof for that. And keep in mind that the LXX is a translation. Why would we want a translation to correct the original? That's why I believe those who do so are inconsistent if they criticize Peter Ruckman for doing the same thing with the KJV and the Greek text.
 

Pete Richert

New Member
Its possible the LXX was corrected to follow Hebrews. I don't even think it really matters.

I don't think MV use the LXX to correct the MT. If anything, MV follows the MT more then KJV/NKJV, and this is why they get into trouble. Some of the quotes in the new testament follow less then the old. But anyway, if you read the preface to most translations they say they only use the LXX or other versions when the meaning or textual decision of the MT is very unclear.

Since the MT is in the process of being constructed (choosing between alternate readings that exist in Hebrew) the LXX and other ancient translations are just more pieces to the puzzle. The problem is, you are right to affirm there might not be THE LXX as there were probably mutliple translations and each of these is needed to be textual critized as well, so you can see the problem is very complicated.
 

Ransom

Active Member
garpier said:

I do not believe that Christ or His apostles used the LXX for the the following reasons.

To my knowledge jots and tittles are characteristics of Hebrew, not Greek.


However, Jesus may have been using a Hebrew idiom. We still say "not one iota" even though we don't speak Greek and don't use iotas. Same thing.

What makes this significant is the Hebrew order of the Old Testament books. Genesis is the first and Chronicles is the last, unlike the order in our modern Bible or the LXX.

Do we know that the LXX was ordered the same way in all places where it was used? Maybe the LXX Jesus and his disciples were familiar with followed the Hebrew ordering.
 

garpier

New Member
Originally posted by Pete Richert:


Since the MT is in the process of being constructed (choosing between alternate readings that exist in Hebrew) the LXX and other ancient translations are just more pieces to the puzzle. The problem is, you are right to affirm there might not be THE LXX as there were probably mutliple translations and each of these is needed to be textual critized as well, so you can see the problem is very complicated.
Thanks for your input. I was not aware that the MT was under construction.(Should I slow down when going through it?
laugh.gif
) I know there are some variant readings in the MT but they are few and far between. In light of God's promise to preserve His Word, I believe there is no need for any construction! I understand the problem is complicated. It becomes even more complicated when the LXX is used to correct the MT. My point is again that is a very poor practice to correct or amend the original language with a translation.
 

garpier

New Member
Originally posted by Ransom:


However, Jesus may have been using a Hebrew idiom. We still say "not one iota" even though we don't speak Greek and don't use iotas. Same thing.
Thanks for your input Ransom. My question here is how would we know that this is a Hebrew idiom? And why would Jesus use a Hebrew idiom to a Greek or Aramaic speaking audience? Would it not be much easier to believe that He was referring to the Hebrew text because that is what He and His audience were familiar with in their synagogue and temple worship?


Do we know that the LXX was ordered the same way in all places where it was used? Maybe the LXX Jesus and his disciples were familiar with followed the Hebrew ordering.

Is there any evidence to suggest that there was a different ordering? (This is a sincere and honest question)
 

Pete Richert

New Member
I know there are some variant readings in the MT but they are few and far between.
Sorry, construction was a poor use of words. I simply meant what you stated above, that variants, while thankfully few and far between, exist, and in some cases if and only if the text is extremely difficult to decide on the LXX is used to shed light. But once again, I reject your claim that scholars use the LXX to correct the MT and would appreciate some examples since you have frequently stated this is so.
 

Ransom

Active Member
garpier said:

Thanks for your input Ransom. My question here is how would we know that this is a Hebrew idiom? And why would Jesus use a Hebrew idiom to a Greek or Aramaic speaking audience?

Just because the lingua france of the Roman Empire was Greek didn't make the Jews who lived in it Hellenists. It is not unreasonable to assume that Jewish/Hebrew patterns of thought and speech transcended the change from one local dialect to another. As I said yesterday, we still refer to an "iota" when we mean something tiny, even though we do not speak Greek ourselves, don't we?

Would it not be much easier to believe that He was referring to the Hebrew text because that is what He and His audience were familiar with in their synagogue and temple worship?

Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't. My poitn is, that is not the only explanation, and it is not sufficient warrant to show that Jesus and the Apostles did not read the Septuagint as well.

Is there any evidence to suggest that there was a different ordering? (This is a sincere and honest question)

I don't know. However, the order of the Hebrew scriptures has not always been the same, and it seems likely the Greek translation would follow whatever the convention was at the time, just as our English Bibles today follow a traditional ordering.
 

garpier

New Member
Originally posted by Pete Richert:
Sorry, construction was a poor use of words. I simply meant what you stated above, that variants, while thankfully few and far between, exist, and in some cases if and only if the text is extremely difficult to decide on the LXX is used to shed light. But once again, I reject your claim that scholars use the LXX to correct the MT and would appreciate some examples since you have frequently stated this is so. [/QB]
Hi Pete If you have access to Gleason Archer's A survey of Old Testament Introduction and go to the index under Septuagint you will see the references he makes in regard to this topic. Also in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia under Septuagint I found this quote
It supplies the materials for the reconstruction of an older form of the Heb than the MT reproduced in our modern Bibles.
Also this quote:
The main value of the LXX is its witness to an older Heb text than our own. But before we can reconstruct this Heb text we need to have a pure Gr text before us, and this we are at present far from possessing
These are two sources which support my contention. I know there are others. As the ISBE article indicates, scholars want to reconstruct the Hebrew with a translation. I don't believe that is either wise or necessary.
 

garpier

New Member
Originally posted by Ransom
Just because the lingua france of the Roman Empire was Greek didn't make the Jews who lived in it Hellenists. It is not unreasonable to assume that Jewish/Hebrew patterns of thought and speech transcended the change from one local dialect to another. As I said yesterday, we still refer to an "iota" when we mean something tiny, even though we do not speak Greek ourselves, don't we?
I agree with your statement. However there is still no hard evidence to indicate that Jesus was not referring to the Hebrew text. I understand about idioms but we can't assume that this was the case here just to prove a point about the LXX.

As you indicated there is no evidence to suggest a different ordering of the LXX. This would lead to a more resonable assumption that Jesus was referring to the Hebrew in the two two passsages I indicated.
 

garpier

New Member
Originally posted by Ransom
Just because the lingua france of the Roman Empire was Greek didn't make the Jews who lived in it Hellenists. It is not unreasonable to assume that Jewish/Hebrew patterns of thought and speech transcended the change from one local dialect to another. As I said yesterday, we still refer to an "iota" when we mean something tiny, even though we do not speak Greek ourselves, don't we?
I agree with your statement. However there is still no hard evidence to indicate that Jesus was not referring to the Hebrew text. I understand about idioms but we can't assume that this was the case here just to prove a point about the LXX.

As you indicated there is no evidence to suggest a different ordering of the LXX. This would lead to a more resonable assumption that Jesus was referring to the Hebrew in the two two passsages I indicated.
 

Pete Richert

New Member
I see what you are saying now. But what I am concerned about is examples in actual translations where the translators blantely choose an LXX reading over a clear MT reading. I know this is not the philosphy of any of the translations I read so I was looking for some examples.

I will see if I can get some copies of your books though I probably won't spend a ton of cash to research just this question.
 
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