Servants of Mary

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

While priest, ministers, and Christian lay persons are not mediators, they are in fact, ambassadors for Christ.

I see this as an unneeded dichotomy. Why can't Christians be both ambassadors as well as mediators? We are ambassadors in proclaiming Christ in our ministry as prophets, and we are mediators through our intercessory prayer. These are distinct roles in the Christian life.

I ... have no mediatoral clout in saving that soul from Hell. Only Jesus Christ saves people from their sins!

Could it not be possible that Jesus includes us in the work of subjective redemption? Do not my prayers have effect? For instance, if I pray that my mother is saved, and if God answers my prayer.. was I not involved in the conversion of my mother? Of course, Jesus is the only one who died to obtain objective redemption, and of course, it is only through his blood that this objective redemption is applied subjectively to each Christian.. but he uses Christians in this work of applying the redemption: whether it be through intercessory prayer, preaching the Gospel, witnessing in deed, etc.

As St. Paul says, "We are God's co-workers" (1 Cor 3:9). God needs no co-workers, but that isn't the point. God brings us in precisely where he doesn't need us through his unfathomable love. God doesn't need us, yet he creates us. God doesn't need to save us, yet he saves us. God is infinitely blessed and content in the eternal divine life of the Blessed Trinity, yet he creates in order to share this dynamic life with creation.

Jesus will share His glory with no other human, whether a minister, priest or layperson.

Ray, I'm really surprised that you just said this. Are you so sure that Jesus doesn't share his glory? Is this what Scripture says?

"Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, 'Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.' And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal" (Rev 21:9-11).

Apparently, when the Bride of the Lamb, the Church, the New Jerusalem, descends from heaven in John the Seer's Apocalypsis, it is adorned with the glory of God.

Also, the tiny word, {heis or hice} in the Greek means one.

Yes, it does. And, it means "one" in a different way than the Greek word monos means "one".

When Paul wrote this to Timothy, he used the Greek heis, not monos.

heis means one as in "sole and primary, allowing subordinate participation"

monos means one as in "solely and only, mutually excluding any participation"

And, we see Paul asking that Christians serve as mediators in this same passage, sharing in the one (heis) mediatorship of Jesus Christ:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Tim 2:1).

 

[Ray Berrian]

I agree with much of what you said, Carson, but I still reaffirm that no person can minister grace to a sinner or saint; this kind of Mediatorship must come from Christ alone. Can you give the Holy Spirit to a sinner?

A Roman Catholic priest or Protestant minister can give the sacrament but only Christ can make it real to that person. Only Christ can give us the grace of the Spirit of God in our hearts and lives. If you think that a priest can confer grace then this is what we mean about only Christ being our Mediator who ministers grace to our human lives.

In my pastorates we had a Confession of Sin in our service or liturgy. After that prayer I would absolve the people from their sins as a kind of general statement. This did not mean that everyone necessarly received absolution from their sins. Only those who made a true and penitent confession actually received forgiveness from Christ. I just declared what Christ had done in the hearts of His people who were totally honest before His Presence.

Christ alone, has to do the work of real ministry in the lives of sinners and in the experience of His people.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

I in no way think that Christ is somehow severed from the work of Christians as instrumental causes. Christ alone is the minister, and we minister only insofar as he works through us.

I still reaffirm that no person can minister grace to a sinner or saint; this kind of Mediatorship must come from Christ alone. Can you give the Holy Spirit to a sinner?

Jesus Christ uses Christians as his instruments in his work of justifying sinners, and the Holy Spirit uses Christians as his instruments in his work of sanctifying sinners.

When we pray, we are the instrumental cause, while Christ is the efficient cause.

Consider the following narrative in Acts 19:1-7:

While Apol'los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.

 

[BobRyan]

Ray -
While priest, ministers, and Christian lay persons are not mediators, they are in fact, ambassadors for Christ.

Good point Ray - and it is "needed" since Scripture declares

"there is ONE Mediator between God and Man - Jesus Christ" 1Tim 2:5

Carson Weber notes -
I see this as an unneeded dichotomy.

Hmmm. How did I know that this was a point that the Catholic POV would struggle with?

This is being discussed in Detail on the Hebrews 7 thread regarding the Ministry of our "One Mediator" Jesus Christ for us in Heaven.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point so devastating to the RC position - is difficult for them to counter. Note

Bob Said --
THere is no case in scripture - not even in Rev 5 where prayers are being addressed to "anyone" but God.

This is one of the trials that Catholicism has to bear - no promotion at all in scripture - of prayers to the dead - or prayers to anyone in heaven but God.

And so they settle for incense being offered TO GOD as though this represents prayers TO someone Else.

How difficult that task is for our RC bretheren.

In fact instead of the text saying "This incense is the prayer of men on earth TO the dead saints in heaven, or TO the saints Dead-in-Christ in heaven" - it says "the incense IS the prayers of the saints" going up "TO God" in Rev 8:2-4.

In Rev 5 we have four living creatures AND 24 elders - NEITHER of these groups were ever declared to be human OR to have ever died. Speculation to the effect that they might have once been human or might have died is simply that - speculation - not Bible doctrine.

And in any case - they are not praying - but the Prayers of the saints is represented as incense - this is the prayers of someone ELSE going TO God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Briguy]

Hi Thess.
Back to the throne idea for a minute. There is more then just God's throne in Heaven, that is obvious. God's throne is central and unique, I think we both agree on that. My point was that in Revelations when John saw the very thrones in heaven, he never mentions Mary on a throne. If Mary is "queen" of heaven she would surely have a throne and it would be more distinguished then the 24 elders. Queens have thrones, do they not?
Remember your belief is that Mary had NO sin on earth and that she did not die, this would certainly give her a special place in heaven, we see no such throne for mary in the vivid picture John gives us.

Thess. What was your point about OT queens? I didn't follow it, sorry about that. Please put in the scripture when you explain it so I get a better handle of your point.


Carson, The article said what I thought it would. It was well written but not convincing. My imagery of Jesus being alone on the island between the two lands makes more sense to me then the article. You, even admit that Jesus, by definition of mediator is the only one who meets the criteria but then you say that Jesus is the one son and we are adopted sons and therefore can share in mediation. Think of it this way, the first born has "rights" and privledges that we do not. If he is the ONE SON and the one mediator then even as His brothers we can't infringe on his rights. Not to mention Jesus is the only one in God's blood line and therefore is the only qualified mediator, regardless of mine, yours, or even Mary's title.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Hi Ed,

Back on page two I refuted your Mary said "yes" response to me and you never responded. Please take a look at what I said about Abraham and then respond, If you can

Seriously, I would love for you to respond, or any of the Catholic bretheren can feel free, if they wish.

Hvae a great weekend everyone!!!!!!!

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

Briguy,

"There is more then just God's throne in Heaven, that is obvious. "

Glad you cleared that up because before you stated:

" We hear of God's throne, elders sitting around the throne, Jesus on the right hand of the throne but never in scripture do we see a throne for Mary."

Those elders had gotten up off of their thrones. Of course this would not have helped your arguement too much so perhaps that is why you left it out.

I will post a bit later on the OT Queens thing. I noticed you brushed over my Rev 12 comment. Just as well. We would have ended up going around in circles on that one also, as I am sure we will with regard to the OT queens. After all in this day and age, the truth isn't what is important about scripture. It's whether or not you have an opinion on a verse (no matter how many others contradict you).

 

[Briguy]

Thess. wrote ""After all in this day and age, the truth isn't what is important about scripture. It's whether or not you have an opinion on a verse (no matter how many others contradict you).""

Thess. that is the first unkind post I have seen from you, and I just complemented you on the other thread.

In Christ, Brian

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

I fully agree with you and your wording in your post which starts by saying, 'I in no way think. . .' {No cut intended; I just could not leave this one alone}

Ray

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Thess. wrote ""After all in this day and age, the truth isn't what is important about scripture. It's whether or not you have an opinion on a verse (no matter how many others contradict you).""

Thess. that is the first unkind post I have seen from you, and I just complemented you on the other thread.

In Christ, Brian

Sorry you were offended Brian. However I stand by my words. Don't take it too personal, as it was more of a general comment against Protestantism rather than at you specifically. I consider the compliment retracted.

God bless

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Brian,

If he is the ONE SON and the one mediator then even as His brothers we can't infringe on his rights.

Ah, but only and only Jesus has the right to divine sonship.

Jesus shares his rights because we are incorporated into his life through participation.

We distinguish in order to unite. We distinguish Christ from Christians in order to unite Christ and his Christians. We are Christians only insofar as we share in the rights, privileges, and status of the only Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

Hi Brian.

"Back to the throne idea for a minute. There is more then just God's throne in Heaven, that is obvious. God's throne is central and unique, I think we both agree on that. My point was that in Revelations when John saw the very thrones in heaven, he never mentions Mary on a throne."

To add to what I stated above, you never actually made this point. The point you made was that God had a throne in heaven but there was no mention of Mary's throne. Now of course acknowledging that there were actually other thrones in heaven which is clearly shown in Rev 5 the other verses I quoted would have been detrimental to your point that God has a throne. It also leaves the discussion open as to who those other thrones might be for. It seems to me that there is good evidence to allow us to fill them as I have already presented.

Luke 22:30
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Further it seems that God is placing a great amount of honor on those who have reached heaven. Yet when a Catholic speaks of any kind of honor for anyone that we believe is in heaven, that immediately becomes idolatry. (once again know that this post is not for you and I am speaking in a general fashion againtst non-catholic false dichotomy, contradiction, and inconsistency). You guys are allowed to make assumptions and inferences about scripture and do it all the time. Then the battle cry is "where is that in scripture". Just venting.


Now another question I have for you is do you think the Bible has taken an inventory of all of the thrones that there are in heaven so that there are 25? Or perhaps 38 or 39 if the 24 elders thrones are not occupied by the Apostles?

"If Mary is "queen" of heaven she would surely have a throne and it would be more distinguished then the 24 elders. Queens have thrones, do they not?"

Do you agree with my taking inference from Luke 22 that that at 12 of the thrones are occupied by Apostles? If so then why can't we take inference from the verses that we see as stating that Mary is Queen of Heaven because the woman in Rev 12 has a crown, she is/was in heaven and obviously is/was greatly honored, perhaps even with a throne.

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Now if this was Mary then surely we can infer that she has a throne, even though the scriptures don't specifically mention it. And all, her having a throne would not detract from the centrality of God's throne any more than the 24 thrones of the eleders. Do you not agree?

"Remember your belief is that Mary had NO sin on earth and that she did not die, this would certainly give her a special place in heaven, we see no such throne for mary in the vivid picture John gives us. "

I am well aware that Mary was sinless.

Meethinks that regardless of whether Mary was sinless or not I do not think it illigical that she would have had a throne since I find it unlikely that the 24 elders spoken of in Rev 5 were sinless. (if they are as stated previously, Apostles and Patriarchs)(i.e. I am saying that the doctrine of the Imaculate conception of Mary and her sinlessness should not prevent you from opening up to the possibility that God presented her with a throne. Let's take one doctrine at a time, rather than confuse the issue.) More likely, being the mother of the savior of the world would be plenty of reason for her to have a throne, which is a perfect lead in to the stuff about the queens of the OT.

"Thess. What was your point about OT queens? I didn't follow it, sorry about that. Please put in the scripture when you explain it so I get a better handle of your point. "

You of course know that Jesus came to reestablish the Davidic kingdom I hope. But in a spiritual way, not a physical on earth way, though we could get off on a tangent that becoming Christian allows us to participate in that kingdom now. This heavenly kingdom is what threw the Jews for a loop as they were looking for an earthy king. Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world". Yet the kingdom of Israel was a type of the heavenly glory of his kingdom. A temporal one that ended to be fullfilled in the unending kingdom of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and King!

Isaiah 9:7
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


Now the Davidic kingdom did not just contain a king, but a whole court of offices. There was the steward (Is 22:22), (which will have gotten in to on threads about the papacy), princes, and princesses, maidens (Psalm 45), etc. etc.

We are told there will be princes in this new kingdom.

Isaiah 32:1
Behold, a king will reign righteously
And princes will rule justly.

I believe in Is 22 we are told that there will be a cheif steward who has the keys.

I can certainly do more research if you want more scirptures to back up my position that there are counterparts to these positions in the New Testament/New Covenant/Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Now there was a position in the kings court that is given special intention in the Davidic Kingdom. It is called the gibira (sp??) or Queen Mother. Now interestingly enough she was not the Kings wife but the Kings mother. (hummmm, who was Jesus' mother?) The Old Testament made a point of telling us who each queen mother was:

1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his mother's name was Naamah the Ammonitess. And Abijam his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 15:2
He reigned three years in Jerusalem; and HIS MOTHER's name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.

1 Kings 15:10
He reigned forty-one years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.


1 Kings 22:42
Jehoshaphat was thirty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Azubah the daughter of Shilhi.


2 Kings 8:26
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah the granddaughter of Omri king of Israel.

2 Kings 12:1
In the seventh year of Jehu, Jehoash became king, and he reigned forty years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Zibiah of Beersheba.

2 Kings 14:2
He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jehoaddin of Jerusalem.

2 Kings 15:2
He was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Jecoliah of Jerusalem.

2 Kings 15:33
He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Jerusha the daughter of Zadok.

2 Kings 18:2
He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah.

2 Kings 21:1
Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Hephzibah.

2 Kings 21:19
Amon was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned two years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Meshullemeth the daughter of Haruz of Jotbah.

2 Kings 22:1
Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath.

2 Kings 23:31
Jehoahaz was twenty-three years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Hamutal the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

2 Kings 23:36
Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Zebidah the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah.

2 Kings 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.


2 Kings 24:18
Zedekiah was twenty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Hamutal the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

Why all this interest in the mother of every king?
Now there is evidence to suggest that the mother of the king has a special role. She had the kings ear and also interceeded for the people with him. Pertinent to another thread, his mother sat on his right:

1 Kings 2:19
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king arose to meet her, bowed before her, and sat on his throne; then he had a throne set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right.


" Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right. "There is one small favor l would ask of you," she said. "Do not refuse me." "Ask It, my mother," the king said to her, "for I will not refuse you. So she said, "Let Abishag the Shunamite be given to your brother Adonijah for his wife."

The king held high regard for the queen's requests. Now is it such a strech to infer from this that in the Davidic Kingdom that Jesus re-established spiritually ,that there will be a queen mother? There is in fact and she has a throne just as the queen mother of the OT Davidic Kings did.

God bless.

[ June 06, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[BobRyan]

The king held high regard for the queen's requests. Now is it such a strech to infer from this that in the Davidic Kingdom that Jesus re-established spiritually ,that there will be a queen mother?

Ahh yes. Wouldn't it be nice to "speculate" that.

How about scripture for a change?

"Without Fahter, Without Mother... having NEITHER beginning of days or end of life, but made LIKE the Son of God" Hebrews 7:4

The attributes "needed" by the Bible character "Melchizedek" (King of righteousness) to be considered "LIKE" the Son of God - are listed above.

#1. Without Father (on Earth - no true Father)
#2. Without Mother (on Earth - no true Mother)
#3. Without beginning of days
#4. Without end of life (on Earth - His death does not end His life - because He rises )

So instead of finding "Mother of God" over-and-over-and-over-and-over again by NT authors writing her account and writing about the church views DECADES after the resurrection of Christ - we find very LITTLE said in that regard. Hardly ANY attention at all - and ultimately a flat denial in Heb 7:4 of any familial link at all between the risen Christ and Mary.

Odd that in "all this Roman Catholic emphasis on the Bible statements regarding the Mother of God" this never comes up. Odd?

The case could hardly be worse for our Catholic bretheren's Catholic doctrine.

No "Queen of Heaven" language given to us by the NT authors - those CLOSEST to Mary.

No "Mother of God" language emphasized over and over and over again (as we see today).

EVEN Christ asks "Who IS My MOTHER and who ARE my brothers"?? MAtt 12:48 When his own followers come to him with the urgent request of His family - thinking that this family connection "should" hold some high place of honor respect and authority for Christ. --- they get "nothing".

Odd that in all the Catholic interest in gathering the 2 or 3 skimpy texts regarding Mary's relationship to Christ - they do not exault this interesting statement of Christ on the "relative" authority in His ministry.

Odd? Or is it just not "convenient" to the point?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Kathryn]

Bob Ryan:

EVEN Christ asks "Who IS My MOTHER and who ARE my brothers"?? MAtt 12:48 When his own followers come to him with the urgent request of His family - thinking that this family connection "should" hold some high place of honor respect and authority for Christ. --- they get "nothing".

Odd that in all the Catholic interest in gathering the 2 or 3 skimpy texts regarding Mary's relationship to Christ - they do not exault this interesting statement of Christ on the "relative" authority in His ministry.

Odd? Or is it just not "convenient" to the point?

Jesus is clearly pointing out a new kind of motherhood according to the spirit and not just according to the flesh. Mary is the perfect example of this kind of mother……

While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:46-50

Mary as Jesus Christ’s first disciple submitted willingly to the will of the Father when she said, “Be it done unto me according to your word.”

By the way, are you saying you are Jesus Christ’s “mother”? …..I hope not. Only Mary is His mother. No matter how much we "do the will of God" we will never be his “mother”. Even St. Paul is not Jesus Christ's mother. "Mother" here is singular not plural. He does not have many mothers, doing the will of the Father.

She is His mother according to the flesh because she bore him in her womb, and nursed Him. But primarily, she is His mother according to the spirit because she did the will of God. Jesus was using her to teach a lesson.

You however can be Jesus’ brother by doing the will of the Father who is in heaven. Jesus never disrespected His mother. He kept all the commandments including honoring his father and mother always.

God Bless

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 12 -
But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:46-50

Read the bold.

"Do you believe this?... I hope not". Because if you do you have no "spiritual" basis upon which to base "queen of heaven" or "mother of God".

But the point is asked why didn't Jesus say "Behold my Mother standing over there by my brothers. She is sinless like Me. Some day to be Queen of Heaven! Already she is Mother of God! She is the ultimate example of what it means to be a faithful child of God. She - more than anyone else is TRULY My Mother. I thank you for saying that My Mother has come to see Me.
Now I urge you to recognize her for who she really is!".

How how "wonderful" if the words IN the text - were matching the loving adoration of "QUEEN of Heaven, Mother of GOD" we find OUTSIDE the text.

But in that huge gap - is the "difference" between RC and non-RC doctrine in this case.

Agreed?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Kathryn]

You don't seem to acknowledge that Mary was also Jesus Christ disciple ...the first one in fact, who first did the will of the Father, when she said "Be it done unto me according to your word." You missed Jesus Christ's lesson here.

She is primarily His mother because she did the will of the Father, not just because she carried Him in her womb. Doing the will of the Father is how we belong to Jesus Christ. Like I say, you are not Jesus Christ's mother, nomatter what you do. You can only be His brother, or His sister if you were female.


God Bless

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

In that whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother He no doubt excludes 'father' because it is a forbiden title only usurped by the most rebellious against Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "Behold my Mother" speaking of the disciples instead of his birth mother.

Christ did not say "Behold My Father" in that regard.

I missed that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As Heb 7:4 states "WITHOUT Father, Without Mother, WIthout beginning of days or end of life..but made like the Son of God".

In Heaven - Christ is not recognized as "having a Mother" in the strictest sense - because He "has no beginning".

In Christ,

Bob