Serving In the Military--Wrong?

Personally, I regret that you have not taken a risk for your Savior.

Believe in Him. Sacrifice your life to save any GI Joe dying in Iraq, save someone that would die and go to Hell. Show them the Love of Jesus Christ through your tireless example of loving them on the field of battle.

Show these lost and dying soldiers that need Jesus that you really believe, or show us that you do not really believe - but show us by your actions what you really believe.

That is your decision.

 

way, way, way over the line.

You owe a bunch of honorable men and women an apology.

 

Dr. Bob,

I agree, but even a thunderstorm can have a silver lining . . . many men have stood up and been willing to the risk public scorn and ridicule of our beliefs.

Had such a sad thing not been said, we would not have lived our godly solidarity . . .

IMHO.

 

I guess the bloke who uttered these words never served. When I signed up, we uttered,,,For God, and country....God was first, then we served our country because of God.

Lord save us!

Cheers,

Jim

 

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Bro. David

 

Fighting for my country is not taking a risk for my Savior. Do you really believe this? I've taken risks for my Savior although not yet risking my life.

 

Why did Christ emphasize that He came to establish a heavenly kingdom not an earthly one? Where did He teach violennce as a means of resolving issues? What does this mean to you?

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Or

Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Or
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Do those who go to war and kill soldiers in the opposing army love their neighbor?

How about this commandment?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

S&N--

The verses you have cited are referring to interpersonal relationships and are not referring to performing military service in defense of one's country.

Serving in the military is not inherently a sin for a Christian.

I suppose you also believe it is a sin for a Christian to serve as a policeman since it may be necessary for him to take the life of another in the performance of his duties.

Were it not for the sacrfices of the men and women in our armed forces down through the years, you would not have the freedoms that you have in this country today.

(BTW, S&N, you still haven't answered the questions I posed in my post.)

 

Hello SandN,

It is neighbor love to defend a weaker or helpless neighbor against an aggressive person (or nation). Would you say that it was a sin for Abraham to take up arms to defend and retrieve Lot?

Likewise, the O.T. is full of times where God clearly commanded war. Yes, Christ's teachings have a strong pacifistic leaning. However, you can not embrace a portion of the Scripture to the neglect of others. Read the rest of the story, see Rev. 19, where Jesus is clearly a warrior King wading in the blood of His enemies as He treads the winepress.

As long as there is evil in the world Christian Pacifists need Christian Just Warriors, otherwise there would be no pacifists (because the evil ones would simply wipe the pacifists off the face of the earth). Likewise, Christian Just Warriors need pacifists to keep us in check so that we do not develop a crusader (Holy War) mentality.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy

 

Yes, I do believe . . . Yes, I do know. . . Yes, I have experienced.

But, the words of Jesus are better than mine: John 12: 25 "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal."

I did not ask you to fight. I asked you to give your life serving those that are fighting because you do not fight . . . Love your life . . . or give it away.

 

I think what we are experiencing here is the tension between the ideas of Christian Pacifism and Christian Just War Theory. The following material comes from my notes in Dr. Mark Liederbach’s Christian Ethics class (and is used by permission). Let’s look at what the Bible has to say about the ideas of strict Christian Pacifism and Christian Just War Theory.

Christian pacifists generally hold tightly to the English translation (such as in the KJV) “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex. 20:13, KJV). However, the Hebrew language in that text and other OT passages does not bear out a strict interpretation meaning “no killing” (consider Deut. 7:1-6). Thus, the passage in Ex. 20:13 is better understood and more rightly translated as “You shall not murder” as in the NASB.

Second, Christian pacifists appeal to Jesus’ example of non-violent resistance. However, Jesus’ specific teachings on the subject indicate elements of both sides (pacifism and Just War).

a. Matt. 5:9—blessed are the peacemakers
b. Matt. 5:21-22a—anger and murder
c. Matt. 5:38-39—turn the other cheek
d. Matt. 10:34—“I did not come to bring peace… but the sword.”
e. Matt. 26:50-56—He had the ability to wage war, but did not resort to war.

Clearly Jesus’ teaching has a very pacifistic streak. However, we must consider the whole counsel of God’s Word on the subject. Consider, Rom. 13:1-7 where we understand that the state is given responsibility to “bear the sword.” This passage is generally understood to mean that God has granted the state the authority to bear the sword for the purpose of capital punishment and to make war (under certain specific circumstances). Finally, we must not forget about the rest of the story found in Rev. 19. Here we clearly see that Jesus wages war.

The problem with a strict Christian pacifist prohibition against all killing and war is that it conflicts with the fact that God commanded war (the Israelite conquest of the Promised Land and that Jesus will return as a Warrior King and wage war). Thus, a strict Christian pacifist position which claims that all war is simply wrong actually impugns God because He commanded war. The Scriptures depict three types of warfare commanded by God.

a. Unlimited Holy War (Josh. 6:21-24, 8:24-25, 10:2-40, 11:11-23)
b. Limited Warfare (Deut. 20:19-20)
c. Zealous Rebellion (Judges 6:11-7:25, 13:1-16:31)

Clearly Christians must avoid the Crusader mentality. Problems and characteristics of Crusades:

a. Crusades treat war as an unconditional effort of good vs. evil—no gray areas
b. Crusades treat war as a matter of religion
c. Crusades have little or no place for moral restraint in actions taken against enemies
d. Because good cannot compromise with evil, and because it requires “total war,” crusade has little or no place for surrender of any kind
e. Wars of crusade are fought for the purpose of imposing, achieving, or expanding ideals usually conceived on an universal or cosmological scale
f. Crusades oppose the whole social order and value system of an enemy, not just a few leading individuals, or a few narrow interests. In a war of crusade, no one can be exempted
g. In crusade, soldiers participate with zeal (i.e. suicide bombers & 9/11 terrorists, etc)
h. Crusades require no declaration of war. Anyone with zeal for righteousness, anyone who loves God, anyone willing to give their all for the “true ideal” may strike a blow for good against evil without waiting for approval from some human authority.
i. Crusade tends to extend the state of war into a permanent condition

So we see that we cannot be outright Christian pacifists and we cannot be Christian Crusaders either. So what option is left? We must look to the idea of Christian Just War Criteria, which includes both jus ad bellum (Latin meaning Law to War) and jus in bello (Latin meaning Justice in War).

Just War Criteria—Jus ad Bellum (Justify Going to War)
A. The criteria or requirements ensuring that the reasons for going to war is (are) just:
1. Must have right or legitimate authority—for Christians, in addition to civil authority, we must ask if the Scriptures bear out what we are about to do?
2. Just Cause
3. Right Intention—Trying to ultimately restore peace
4. Last Resort
5. Proportionality—Do only what is necessary to obtain the stated goals or ends
6. Reasonable Chance of Success
a. Counting the cost before building a tower (Luke 14:31). However, are there times when you are just willing to die for what is right?
7. Minimizing Negative Effects—Help rebuild when war is over

B. Moral Traces:
1. For Just Warriors—Even though I must go to war, I do not want or seek to do so.
2. For Pacifists—Sanctity of Human Life, Jesus’ turn the other cheek and peacemaker teachings etc.

C. Why Pacifists and Just Warriors need each other:
1. Both start from a presumption against violence and killing
2. Just Warriors need Pacifists to keep them in check—preventing them from becoming unlimited warriors or developing the Crusader mentality
3. Pacifists need Just Warriors to protect them and their right to be pacifists

Just War Criteria: Jus in Bello (Just behavior in War)
A. Legitimate Authority—Same as in jus ad bellum above

B. Discrimination—Asks the questions, Who may be attacked, how may they be attacked, and when may they be attacked?

1. Who: Non-combatant Immunity
a. Prohibition on the direct and intentional killing of non-combatants (Micah 6:8)
b. Who is to count as a non-combatant?
c. 4 Classifications and their status
i. Combatants—uniformed (armed) soldiers
ii. Non-combatants—civilians (unarmed)
iii. Ex-combatants—POW, sick or wounded soldiers, medics, Chaplains
iv. Unprivileged belligerents—Spies, saboteurs, command and control structures etc.
2. How and When: Rules of Engagement, Double Effect, and Perfidy
a. Rules of Engagement—Moral principles that bind conduct in war
b. Collateral Damage and the “Rule of Double Effect”—The attempt to deal with situations in which an agent foresees, but does not intend, an evil effect that will result from pursuing a good effect
i. The act must itself be either good or indifferent, or at least not forbidden with a view to preventing just the particular effect
ii. The evil effect cannot be a means to the good, but must be equally immediate or at least must result from the good effect
iii. The foreseen evil effect must not be intended or approved, merely permitted—for even a good act is vitiated if accompanied by an evil attempt
iv. There must be a proportionately serious reason for exercising the cause and allowing the evil effect.
c. Perfidy (treachery)—Dealing forthrightly with the enemy. A code of conduct. Raises the question: “On what basis should one try to limit treachery such as signing a treaty and then blowing it off when the other side disarms?”

C. Proportionality
1. The probable benefits of any particular course of action within war must outweigh the probable costs.

I hope this sheds a bit of light on the subject.

 

Those that claim that Jesus would never support any violence because he was meek and lowly and told everybody to forgive and just love everybody else no matter what they did are forgetting a couple of things.

John 2
12After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Here, Jesus sees the horrible condition of the temple and how some people were using those that had come to worship for profit. He made a weapon and chased those people and animals out of the temple.

Matthew 21
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Jesus once again cleanses the temple. The first time was at the beginning of his public ministry and this time at the end of it. I don't see those that were making profit just packing up and leaving at Jesus's word, so he physically had to cast them out. Jesus was meek and lowly, but he was also strong enough to get the job done when needed. Jesus even called for his enemies who did not want him to king over them to be brought in front on him and killed (Luke 19). He was no pacifist.

:type:

 

BTW, I did serve just over six years in the U.S. Air Force starting before and ending after the first gulf war. It is not wrong to serve in the military.

 

Why? Do you support the US army in whatever war they happen to be engagedin irregardless of whether that war is just. Is the Iraq war just? The CIA has just come out with a report that says the war has increased the threat of terrorism rather than decreasing it. We hear a great deal about the 2,500 US soldiers that have died in Iraq. What about the 100,000 Iraqis we have killed? Are wqe really going to institute Democracy in Iraq? No. This war will end in a civil war between the various factions in Iraq. What is Christian about killing and maiming hundred of thousands of human beings for no good reason?

 

How many of these people did Jersus kill or even hurt?

 

You didn't qualify your statement earlier. You didn't say, "it's wrong for a Christian to serve in what I see as an unjust war."

Forget Iraq for a moment. You said it was wrong for Christians to serve in the military. That includes those who fought in the civil war for freedom of slaves. That includes those who defended our country against the kamikazes from Japan's empire.

Now, do you have a problem with all military service for Christians, or just those who serve what you see as unjust wars?

And you still owe a lot of honorable folks an apology for impugning their character. I would have defended your stance had you said, "I think it's wrong for me to serve in the military." But you took it several steps further than that...and did so with a poor attitude to boot.