Seventh Day Adventance

[BobRyan]

Timothy was not circumcised because of his Greek father. He did not get the proper education that he should have gotten. He was "home-schooled" because he was not allowed in the Temple. Not being circumcised, he missed out on some of God's greatest blessing. He suffered persecution at the hands of his father. That is without a doubt.

Both Lois and Eunice came to know Christ as Savior. Your point therefore makes no sense.

He was a Jew in heritage only; a Christian in faith.
My ethnicity has nothing to do with my faith; neither does Paul's. You are being ridiculous.
.

once again your argument contradicts scripture because you are using "any ol excuse will do" instead of studying the Bible for actual facts.

In Acts 14 the Gospel is first preached at Lystra (Acts 14:8-23) - at this time people in Lystra were converted to the Gospel.

Acts 16:1 Paul returned to Lystra to got Timothy (a new convert) to join him.

Timothy came from a line of faithful Jews 2Tim 1:5 going all the way back to his grandmother.

3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, 5 when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

Timothy had been raised to believe the actual scriptures (the OT) 2Tim 3:15.

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Why do you simply "make stuff up" by contrast to the clear teaching of scripture?

Your "any ol excuse will do" form of Bible study that only serves the purpose of propping up your man-made-traditions is not sound Bible study.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

once again your argument contradicts scripture because you are using "any ol excuse will do" instead of studying the Bible for actual facts.

In Acts 14 the Gospel is first preached at Lystra (Acts 14:8-23) - at this time people in Lystra were converted to the Gospel.

Acts 16:1 Paul returned to Lystra to got Timothy (a new convert) to join him.

Timothy came from a line of faithful Jews 2Tim 1:5 going all the way back to his grandmother.

Acts 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
--It is odd how you can reference this verse above and not notice how his father was a Greek. I don't make up things. Families are Patriarchal not matriarchal. His Greek father was the head of the home, and therefore Timothy was not circumcised. He was not a full-fledged Jew.

Acts 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
--The Jews knew that Timothy, for all intents and purposes, was not a Jew. He was not circumcised. He followed in his father's footsteps as far as genealogy was concerned. He was not allowed in the Jewish community or even to be educated by them. He was "home-schooled" by his mother and grandmother.
That is why Paul took him and circumcised him.
It had nothing to do with salvation, but rather that Timothy would be more useful in ministry by being accepted by the Jewish community as a circumcised Jew. For it was the practice of Paul to go to the Jew first and then to the Greek.

3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, 5 when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

Timothy had been raised to believe the actual scriptures (the OT) 2Tim 3:15.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
They had read and studied the Scriptures. Their hearts were opened, and Paul had led them to the Lord. Paul calls him a "son in the faith."

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The knowledge that he learned from his mother and grandmother became useful. His mind was now illuminated. The Holy Spirit opened up the meaning of the Scriptures to him, whereas before it was just knowledge. Now he COULD continue in the things he had learned. Before it was legalistic obedience to the law; something that God detests. Now it was obedience out of a joy for the Lord.

Why do you simply "make stuff up" by contrast to the clear teaching of scripture?

I didn't make anything up, but just demonstrated your ignorance of the Scriptures. Read your Bible more carefully.

 

[Yeshua1]

[/I]









Obviously. And that is the part where we both agree.

Where we differ is the fact that Paul does identify himself as a Jew who accepts the Jewish Messiah being Jesus the Christ.

Paul argues that a remnant of individuals in literal Israel do that same thing.

Individual salvation in the face of national apostasy is what Elijah faced - is what Paul faced.

in Christ,

Bob


That is nonsense. Paul states in Romans 11 that at that time THERE IS a remnant in the same way that one existed in the days of Elijah.

Everybody can see this.

[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

you have bent-wrenched "[FONT=&quot] In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time[/FONT]" into "[FONT=&quot] In the same way then, there will SOME DAY be at a some FUTURE time a remnant" -- your not-so-subtle eisegesis is hard to miss[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

God was the ONE who called out/chose/protected/preserved his faithul remnant among the jews, and that truth actually shows us the the power of God will and does secure salvation forever unto those whom he chose to save in Christ!

again, the scriptures do NOT teach once saved, but up to you to keep it, or else forfeit it!

 

[BobRyan]

again, the scriptures do NOT teach once saved, but up to you to keep it, or else forfeit it!

The scripture DOES teach doctrine that OSAS does not survive.


[FONT=&quot]1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 If indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which i paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the end = saved
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


God's Word giving Real Warning - to Endure/Perservere.

2Peter 2:20-22
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" a dog returns to its own vomit,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

========================================

Conclusion -

When the LOST "persevere" in staying lost -they "remain lost".

When the SAVED "persevere in staying saved" they "remain saved".

in Christ,

Bob


[/FONT]

 

[DHK]

The scripture DOES teach doctrine that OSAS does not survive.

1. You proved yourself ignorant of the life of Timothy as I demonstrated in my post above.
2. The Bible teaches beyond overwhelming abundance throughout every book of the Bible eternal security. Your ignorance of this doctrine shows a lack of understanding in one of the most important of doctrines, the doctrine of salvation. That is truly sad!
3. The belief that the scriptures below refute OSAS both shows your lack of knowledge and understanding of salvation. Many of these verses do not even address the subject of salvation. This shows your lack of understand of the scriptures in general as will be shown shortly.
[FONT=&quot]

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."[/FONT]

This epistle to Timothy is a pastoral epistle where Paul is encouraging Timothy to pay close attention to the the things (doctrine) that he has taught him, and continue, that is don't give up as a young pastor.
Only God can save! This is a pastoral epistle, and Paul is warning Timothy about "saving" himself as a minister, and his ministry (the church at Ephesus). A man not attentive to the Word of God will surely be destructive to his congregation.
[FONT=&quot]

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

What is the context here? Jesus is speaking to his disciples as he sends them out. The context is persecution. Even their own relatives will turn against them. The disciples were already saved spiritually. This is speaking of a physical salvation. They must endure the persecution and not give up. They must endure to the end. It is a physical salvation that is spoken of here. There is a further application to the Jews in the Tribulation period as well. They must also endure during that time until Christ comes and saves them as a nation. It is a physical endurance and physical salvation that is being spoken of. Salvation is not of works--never!

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Nothing here about losing one's salvation. Pay attention to what you have heard and learned. People do drift away from their moorings. That doesn't mean they lose their salvation.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

There are many warnings in the Book of Hebrews simply because it is written to "Hebrews." He was writing to those Hebrews, some of which were thinking of returning to Judaism. The entire book contrasts Temple worship with the worship of Christ. Thus all these scriptures in Hebrews are taken out of context.
A Christian is one who will hold fast his confidence and firm hope until the end. There is no chance that he won't. You won't understand these verses if you don't recognize the context in which they are written.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Again, written to believing Hebrews who were thinking about going back to Temple worship, to escape the terrible persecution that they were under. Much of what the author is writing isn't possible, but is suppositional. A believing heart cannot fall away. Because it is written this way many have problems with it. They don't understand the context. This is why is it so easy for anti-OSAS to use Hebrews for their defense. But in reality it is simply scripture taken out of context.

Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

They were thinking about going back to Temple Worship. Look what the author here says:
--Don't do it! Don't throw away your confidence (in Christ).
--You have need of endurance (patience in suffering through this present persecution); God will reward you what he promised.
--Christ is coming soon.
--The righteous live by faith. And they did. This refutes your position.
--verse 39 speaks of eternal security as well. We (Christians) do not shrink back to destruction, but rather we do "believe to the saving of the soul."

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Why are you confused?
"The gospel..by which you are saved." We are saved through the gospel. Always have been. The "if you hold fast..." is applicable to belief in that gospel, which is discussed in the rest of this chapter, particularly in reference to the resurrection, which some of them "did not hold fast." Some denied the resurrection. Thus Paul said "If you hold fast." One cannot deny the resurrection and still be saved.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

These verses speak of the nation of Israel. They don't speak of eternal security.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 If indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which i paul was made a minister.

And no believer would move away from the hope of the gospel of which he has believed, for the Holy Spirit dwells within him and has changed him. He now desires to live for the one that has saved him and forgiven him.
If you don't have that desire perhaps you are not saved.

The rest of your scripture references are also taken without regard to context.

[/FONT]

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I listened to a Presntation/Sermon by a SAD preacher last night and I found it very interesting. ALL of these people I have known seem to be Godly People.I heard nothing that .was in conflict with the Scripture as it related to the Core Doctrines. They practice the ordinances of Baptism by Emerson and Communion. They practice "foot washing". From what I retained they believe in "Soul sleep".I would appreciate your comments,not from a critical stand point, but in the line of curing ignorance.

The best joke I have heard (or read) in a long time. Nothing SAD made me laugh though --- goodness!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The scripture DOES teach doctrine that OSAS does not survive.

Bob

My sympathy. It must be hard to live your whole life in such uncertainty.

Heart-breaking, as assurance always has been near, as in the heart embraced...

... irony the bitter of happiness or the sweet of misery?