Seventh-Day Adventism

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: what is this political gogga called now ... democracy! Not Theocracy

HP: Oh please GE. Your weeping does less than impress me. I suppose that you believe that God writes the script of denominational dogmas. You are either simply naïve or exceedingly ignorant of the methods employed by denominations in establishing their beliefs. Which is it?

 

[Joe]

[qote] Bob said Quote:
SDAs are not taught to establish doctrinal statements by going to Ellen White either in baptismal classes or in church schools. So those who resort to that method are simply ignoring what they have been trained/told/instructed to do regarding the sola-scriptura models used to establish doctrine.

I am sorry to have to be the one to report this to you but..

1. SDAs clapping at a meeting is not how we get our doctrinal statements.

You need to go back and read your own quote. My response is in reference to the quote I bolded. Clearly SDA's clapping (applause) for thie own SDA Theologian quoting Ellen White over scripture is not following your Sola-scriptura models whether it be on a lower or higher level. It doesn't need to change doctrine, yet I have proven it does change doctrine already by using your own SDA theologies words anyhow, so your argument is mute.
Remember, "We can't talk about the order of creation"....This is established, that SDA's cannot talk about the order of creation regarding Doctrine BECAUSE it differs with EH.

The truth has been shown to you. It's up to you whether you want to accept it.


You excuses that a non-sda can't agree with EH or SDA docrine are bunk. I have many SDA friends who believe AS I DO. They admit EH is a fake, not a prophet/messenger of god yet choose not to leave their home SDA church. I respect that decision.
We also agree on other doctrines of SDA from what I know so please don't use that as an excuse to clear your conscience.

Another note, there is a huge group of SDA's here who hold to the beliefs of Desmond Ford, and yes, they are SDA. They hold to the majority of SDA Doctrine. He established a church in this area called Good News, yet he moved on to promote the truth about SDA's and is well known for his world outreach. If I had known this sooner, I likely would have seeked to join their church instead, especially with our background being SDA.

Stay SDA if you wish, but please be honest with yourself and our Lord. If you truly believe you must be SDA to believe in their doctrines then I wonder why you frequent this message board. You have already decided to believe what you want, even when shown the truth.

 

[Joe]

Oh please GE. Your weeping does less than impress me.

It shouldn't impress you. Why you would come up with that conclusion is beyond me. That post wasn't directed at you anyway, so why concern yourself over it so much so that you attempt to discredit your brother in Christ.

We all can disagree without the sarcasm spewed throughout the posts, such as accusations a fellow brother is making stuff up. Or calling their posts " stories". The constant jabs at others reading comprehension is inexcusable. Maybe it's my foster parent background but demeaning others in this fashion should not be tolerated by ANYONE on this board. You surely should understand this, etc.... is an example of a comment used.

The Lord desires all people in his kingdom, not just the folks who believe they have a higher IQ. Everyone here should want to learn the truth, regardless of their denomination, and reading capabilities. I am saddened to hear that anyone can believe a denominational affiliation can prevent one from learning and believing what is true. Non-SDA's can surely believe in SDA Doctrines, including EW. Salvation is more important to me that any denominational affiliation.
Happy Sabbath to the Sabbath keepers !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: It shouldn't impress you so why you would come up with that conclusion is beyond me. It wasn't directed at you anyway, so why concern yourself over it so much so that you are attempting to discredit your brother in Christ.

HP: My comments were directed not at you either, so using your logic, (not mine,) why should my remarks to GE concern you?

Secondly I was not discrediting a brother in the least. I was commenting NOT on him personally, but rather a lack of understanding of the issue he was addressing.

Joe: I am sad that anyone can believe that a denominational affiliation can prevent one from learning and believing what is true.

HP: Here I have no earthly idea what you are alluding to. Possibly some other post I might have missed. If in fact you think that I have stated or implied anything close to what you are bringing to the lists attention, could you show me the quote that would have left you with that impression? Thanks.

 

[Joe]

I mean that last quote to BR, but I clearly forgot to include his quotes when inserting it. Sorry.


As a baptist, if others do not believe our doctrine, I don't say "I can't expect them to because they are not Baptist"

Many of my friends are SDA's and we hold to similar beliefs which include the majority of SDA Doctrine. I do not need
to be SDA to believe in Ellen White.

 

[BobRyan]

My observation is that SDA is largely like the Mormons. They practice "Christianity" in such an odd fashion as to have demonstrated beyond a doubt that their beliefs comes to them apart from the Bible.

In many mainline denoms it is difficult to tell whether or not they pratice biblical Christianity. In the case of these 2, it is not. The Bible is merely a "prop" for their flawed systems of theology.

How else can one explain these things away?

skypair

Your post is in the form of "I feel...I feel...I feel...accusation" so how can you seriously expect an answer to the question?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

GE

This is what breaks my heart! A list of 'voted beliefs', for the creation of doctrine! I weep! First it implies the method and ground -- the source, of SDA doctrine;
.

Sadly it means that you will never be able to point to a "Pope" inside the SDA church even though some in true empty-accusation style would love to do that very thing. Read the thread. Respond with substance please.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan
EVEN the NIV study notes admit that the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is pagan Rome that follows the Greek Empire.

This is just too simple.

The only challenge is that instead of slicing and dicing the 4th empire -- all you need is to KEEP the Roman empire and observe that it goes from PAGAN Rome to PAPAL Rome which creates the DARK Ages - and Century after Century of "persecution of the saints".

Now for some that is just not acceptable - but a lot of people looking at world history "will get it".

Have no fear. It is all right there in the chapter.

As you say BR, a lot of people looking at world history "will get it", and did get it. Long before the Seventh Day Adventists did. The Reformers saw the same. And I am glad on this point I take my stand with you and with the lot of other people too.

Ok - I was right -- that part is really easy!

in Chris,t

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob -- Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
I am sorry to have to be the one to report this to you but..

1. SDAs clapping at a meeting is not how we get our doctrinal statements.

Joe
You need to go back and read your own quote. My response is in reference to the quote I bolded. Clearly SDA's clapping (applause) for thie own SDA Theologian quoting Ellen White over scripture is not following your Sola-scriptura models

You're missing the point again. Let me try it another way.

I am almost positive that some place today there are a group of Adventists meeting and possibly even clapping in approval of some idea that I would not approve of. These little groups "meeting and clapping" (in your words) do not constitute "a change in Avdventist doctrine" for the denomination.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You excuses that a non-sda can't agree with EH or SDA docrine are bunk. I have many SDA friends who believe AS I DO. They admit EH is a fake, not a prophet/messenger of god yet choose not to leave their home SDA church. I respect that decision.
We also agree on ALL of the other doctrines of SDA from what I know so please don't use that as an excuse to clear your conscience.

Here AGAIN you missed the point entirely.

I NEVER SAID that non-SDAs and SDAs can not find common ground doctrines to AGREE on.

OBSERVE my posting on the OSAS threads in the same agreement as HP and many others for example.

OBSERVE my posting on the Calvinst/Arminian threads in favor with a lot of people on this board.

OBSERVE my posting on the immortal-soul threads posting in favor of the DORMANT state of the spirit -- in the same way that Eliyahu and many others on this thread post.

You are simply not paying attention on this one Joe and I am not sure why.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: I do not needto be SDA to believe in Ellen White.

HP: As a side note, it is exceedingly hard to establish what any believe personally by church affiliation. Rake for instance the Church of God. According to a book about denominations I have, there are over 100 sects of the Church of God. Why shoul SDA’s or any other be much different?

Try telling a Baptist on this list what they believe because they go to a Baptist Church or are holding membership in a Baptist Church. Can I assume that they automatically should be held to the same judgment as say I might hold Calvin simply because they are Calvinistic in doctrine and Calvin is obviously where they take their direct impetus of the clear majority of their doctrines from? I know not just a few especially on this list that would scream and do scream every time such an assertion is made. Why do you seem to hold those attending or belonging to the SDA Church to a standard that you most likely would not desire to be held to as evidently now a Baptist?

I certainly have no problem making a clear connection between the ideas of Calvin and the Baptist Churches today. Can I suppose that you are kindling the fires for another stake burning as Calvin obviously condoned or directly granted? If that makes you uncomfortable, why would you hold the feet of a member of the SDA Church to every idea that EGW held to for instance?

How about your ideas and double predestination of Augustine and Calvin? Do you hold to the predestination of the damned? Tell me how you can escape it being obviously now confessed Calvinistic in theology as a Baptist? (At least that is what I thought you were now associated with. If I am wrong, please correct me.)

 

[BobRyan]

. I am saddened to hear that anyone can believe a denominational affiliation can prevent one from learning and believing what is true. Non-SDA's can surely believe in SDA Doctrines

I am dissappointed to see that you construe that from anything I have ever posted given my history and current posts on this board.

I am shocked that you label them as "SDA doctrines" -- the Sabbath was not given to the world as "An SDA doctrine". Rather the Seventh-day Baptists introduced it to the Adventist and God is the author of the doctrine from day one.

, including EW.

Now that is shocking. You are arguing that a non-SDA would accept Ellen White as a true prophet BUT NOT the SDA doctrines that she writes in favor of???

You might want to explain that one -- it is new to me.

Ed is an example of a non-SDA who accepts her as a fellow Christian and agree with some of what she says. But I doubt that Ed is ever going to say that all her messages are really from God as she claims in areas where he differs from her.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: As a side note, it is exceedingly hard to establish what any believe personally by church affiliation. Rake for instance the Church of God. According to a book about denominations I have, there are over 100 sects of the Church of God. Why shoul SDA’s or any other be much different?

Try telling a Baptist on this list what they believe because they go to a Baptist Church or are holding membership in a Baptist Church.

Even worse - try telling them that just because a little group of baptists met in some other state and "clapped" in response to some idea -- they must ALL agree to that doctrine or-view etc.

Pretty huge stretch of imagination.

. Why do you seem to hold those attending or belonging to the SDA Church to a standard that you most likely would not desire to be held to as evidently now a Baptist?

I certainly have no problem making a clear connection between the ideas of Calvin and the Baptist Churches today. Can I suppose that you are kindling the fires for another stake burning as Calvin obviously condoned or directly granted? If that makes you uncomfortable, why would you hold the feet of a member of the SDA Church to every idea that EGW held to for instance?

Or "the clapping" of some small group of SDAs attending a meeting and listening to a speaker on ANY topic whatsoever!

I am at a loss as to where that logic is coming from.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Many of my friends are SDA's and we hold to similar beliefs which include the majority of SDA Doctrine. I do not need
to be SDA to believe in Ellen White.

1. Your posts do not show you to be a non-SDA that "believes in Ellen White".

2. Do you have examples of such a thing?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Or "the clapping" of some small group of SDAs attending a meeting and listening to a speaker on ANY topic whatsoever!

HP: Remind me never to clap in a service. It might send some the wrong message or cause some to falsely conclude from whence I came. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

What a sobering thought!

You could be changing an entire denomination's belief with that careless clapping (or since I AM SDA and only SDA's are held to this doctrine-by-clapping standard -- at least I COULD be changing a denominations doctrines if I WERE clapping at one of the meetings I attend).:laugh: :applause:

oops! that was clapping again...:saint:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

HP: As a side note, it is exceedingly hard to establish what any believe personally by church affiliation. Rake for instance the Church of God. According to a book about denominations I have, there are over 100 sects of the Church of God. Why shoul SDA’s or any other be much different?

Agreed! I assumed Bob believed as SDA's regarding their Doctrine and Ellen White
because he suggested to go to the Official Adventist Doctrinal Statements in lew of the way others were presenting their arguments. I agree with him, and took his recommendation.

Try telling a Baptist on this list what they believe because they go to a Baptist Church or are holding membership in a Baptist Church.

I agree we shouldn't, UNLESS they are SBC, and suggest to us to use Official SBC Doctrine.

Can I assume that they automatically should be held to the same judgment as say I might hold Calvin simply because they are Calvinistic in doctrine and Calvin is obviously where they take their direct impetus of the clear majority of their doctrines from?

I suppose not, but Calvin doesn't dictate any of our beliefs in our church since we are autonomous. We are allowed to be Baptists and no believe in Calvin unlike the SDA situation Bob directed us to Official SDA Doctrine. This was wise, if he believes in it. He clearly doesn't believe in all of it as he says, referring to Gen 3.

I know not just a few especially on this list that would scream and do scream every time such an assertion is made.

I believe this is true.

Why do you seem to hold those attending or belonging to the SDA Church to a standard that you most likely would not desire to be held to as evidently now a Baptist?

I don't. As I stated, there are various SDA's but they don't refer us to official SDA Doctrine regarding issues like EW. Bob is correct in doing so as the internet is often wrong so why not go to the horses mouth.

Can I suppose that you are kindling the fires for another stake burning as Calvin obviously condoned or directly granted? If that makes you uncomfortable, why would you hold the feet of a member of the SDA Church to every idea that EGW held to for instance?

I am not familiar with Calvin and his beliefs. I am Baptist but this was not a part of the requirement to join, Baptist churches as you know, are autonomous or however you spell it. I read our church Doctrine, and there isn't anything stated that I really disagree with except non-salvation issues such as what happens upon death.

I wouldn't hold an SDA every belief of Ellen White except this discussion took many turns, and depending upon the turn, I will attempt to answer. Regarding how she plays into SDA Doctrine is very important, and I wanted it proven that she does play a role. That her beliefs can dictate doctrine, something Bob disagrees with. And something the SDA church is lying about. I proved it by showing that an SDA Theologian stated the SDA's cannot talk of the order of creation due to EW beliefs, therefore it is not allowed to be included in doctrine. They can speak of the Fall since her beliefs are similar to scripture in that instance. EW beliefs are usually similar to scripture.
It makes no difference whether this is a little church meeting or not. It reflects how SDA Theologians believe and how they establish their Doctrine whether they were actually doing so at the time.

How about your ideas and double predestination of Augustine and Calvin? Do you hold to the predestination of the damned?

Tell me how you can escape it being obviously now confessed Calvinistic in theology as a Baptist? (At least that is what I thought you were now associated with. If I am wrong, please correct me.)

I am more Armanian, similar to Bob's beliefs. Thanks for the tone of your post, I appreciate it. You can be really sweet, and pretty funny!

I am going to get yelled at if I don't get off this computer soon. So we'll see how much time I have to reply to Bob's posts now. I haven't got a chance to read them all yet.

If not, I'll get back to you Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I suppose not, but Calvin doesn't dictate any of our beliefs in our church since we are autonomous. We are allowed to be Baptists and no believe in Calvin unlike the SDA situation Bob directed us to Official SDA Doctrine. This was wise, if he believes in it. He clearly doesn't believe in all of it as he says, referring to Gen 3.

I never said anything about the 28 doctrinal statements of SDAs being against Gen 3.

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding how she plays into SDA Doctrine is very important, and I wanted it proven that she does play a role. That her beliefs can dictate doctrine, something Bob disagrees with. And something the SDA church is lying about. I proved it by showing that an SDA Theologian stated the SDA's cannot talk of the order of creation due to EW beliefs,

Your argument is out of context. No SDA group today is arguing FROM Gen 2 that even BEFORE the curse - the woman was "cursed anyway" via an argument "from order" that man was created first.

You make it appear that SDAs WANT to make that careless mistake but mean ol' Ellen White won't let them.

You argument is from the VOID of doctrines that DON't EXIST - arguing that the LACK of those doctrines is proof that doctrines that DO exist were not derived sola-scriptura. your argument then rests on two questionable points.

1. SDA's clapping at a meeting
2. Doctrines that DON't exist in the SDA church that you wish DID exist

Truly a convoluted string of evidence on your part.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

You're missing the point again. Let me try it another way.

I am almost positive that some place today there are a group of Adventists meeting and possibly even clapping in approval of some idea that I would not approve of. These little groups "meeting and clapping" (in your words) do not constitute "a change in Avdventist doctrine" for the denomination.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

I am attempting to answer a quicker posts since I must take off in a sec. I'll be back later.
I didn't state that was the exact process of establishing doctrine, but this is an SDA Theologian who established that Ellen White does dictate doctrine at times. Again, he stated the SDA's are not allowed to talk of the order of creation due to EW beliefs which differ from the Bible. EW should not dictate whether the SDA's teach of the order of creation, the Bible should.
Clapping shows us that a large group of SDA's are not instructed to follow Sola-Scriptura models so are elevating Ellen Whites beliefs above scripture. You stated SDA's are instructed to follow Sola Scriptura and when it doesn't, they are ingnoring the correct methods. I know you believe in following Sola Scriptura, so I know I am not incorrect on this. We can see, not all SDA's follow this and mistakingly, since both writings are held as divine authority, choose the latter. I wish this wasn't included on their official website but luckily, the Professor corrected this group of folks.


I see your point too.