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Seventh Day Adventist Question
- Thread starter Pastor_Bob
- Start date
BR:
“... the Bible truth that Christ has gone to heaven AFTER his crucifixion to be our High Priest and that the EARTHLY system of priests ended as His HEAVENLY priesthood began...”
GE:
Your quotes do NOT support the grotesque distortion you betray here with both subtleness and flagrancy.
Remove the word “began”, and change the words “to be”, to “being”, or “as”, and you have ‘the Bible truth that Christ has gone to heaven after his crucifixion, being, or as, our High Priest, and after that the earthly system of priests ended, as His HEAVENLY priesthood was declared “with power … by the resurrection of Him from the dead ... who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification, therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ BY WHOM ALSO WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO HIS GRACE ...” (Ro.1:4, 4:25, 5:1-2)
Observe how Paul describes what the writer of Hebrews calls the High Priestly Office of the High Priest of the Most High God – High Priest according to the Law of an endless life!
Therefore place and use your word “began” here, where it belongs qualitatively, where the beginning of all things “made”, really and truly begins – where all the works of God are finished and perfected – so also the High Priestly Work of Jesus Christ – where is in operation “the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe: Where God raises Christ from the dead!
Then, with all the saints of God, confess and proclaim:
... the Bible truth that Christ has gone to heaven after his crucifixion and after that He by His heavenly High Priesthood ended the earthly system of priests through the Law of an endless life, to be our High Priest for evermore!
Now in the light of this, re-consider what you have quoted:
“For the law made high priests who had the infirmities of men, for they were men themselves; the oath of God, which came after the law, establishes the Son, when He is perfected for ever, consecrated in heaven unto God.
[This we observe in His resurrection – GE]
We see here that, although there was an analogy and the figures of heavenly things, [not, “in heaven”, but on earth – GE] there is more of contrast than of comparison in this epistle. The legal priests had the same infirmities as other men; Jesus has a glorified priesthood according to the power of an endless life.
[Which Priesthood Jesus no doubt and presupposed as fact by Darby’s Commentary, HAD! – GE]
The introduction of this new priesthood, exercised in heaven, implies a change in the sacrifices and in the covenant. This the inspired writer develops here setting forth the value of the sacrifice of Christ, and the long-promised new covenant. The direct connection is with the sacrifices; but he turns aside for a moment to the two covenants, a so wide-embracing and all-weighty consideration for the Christian Jews who had been under the first.” End quote
GE:
Here’s your last-straw-hope, Bob Ryan, what this Commentary here describes as “this new priesthood, exercised in heaven”.
That Darby does not mean “in heaven” literally, is clear from the whole of its further explanation in the same passage quoted. And even though “in heaven” might be taken for literal, Darby does not present Jesus’ Priesthood exclusively “in heaven”, but only as in part and also as, “in heaven”, so that the same and unchanged and eternal High Priesthood of Jesus Christ executed and fulfilled on earth in the flesh of Him, is supposed and said to be continued “in heaven” – not to ‘begin’ as according to you!
Darby’s in fact demolishes your doctrine. It says “The direct connection is with the sacrifices” while it deems Jesus’ Priesthood as “in heaven”. The implication is undeniable: Jesus exercised and fulfilled the Office of Priest – the Office of ‘heavenly’ High Priest – when and while and where He “offered up HIMSELF” on earth!
The Commentary speaks of, “The introduction of this new priesthood, exercised in heaven”. “This new priesthood”, as already in existence, declared and confirmed in Christ while on earth and indeed as “from the dead” and from earthly grave “raised”, is now, after, also, ‘introduced’ and “exercised in heaven”.
What monstrous audacity of yours to claim Jesus not already possessed every virtue mediated on behalf of His own, when, and before, He was taken up into the heavens!
Listen to what Darby declares – the very negation of your view!
“Now it is not said, that we have "the good things to come." Christ has gone into heaven itself, the High Priest of those good things, securing their possession to them that trust in Him. But we have access to [18] God in the light by virtue of Christ's presence there. That presence is the proof of righteousness fully established; the blood, an evidence that our sins are put away for ever; and our conscience is made perfect. Christ in heaven is the guarantee for the fulfilment of every promise. He has opened an access for us, even now, to God in the light, having cleansed our consciences once for all -for He dwells on high continuously- that we may enter in, and that we may serve God here below.”
Darby says Jesus WAS High Priest BEFORE and exercised Priest in heaven, “the PROOF of righteousness fully ESTABLISHED”. You, claim, Jesus was NOT High Priest BEFORE; but somehow for no reason ever given “began” High Priest, after, without evidence whatsoever of righteousness gained, denying righteousness gained or established through High Priesthood of Christ when raised from the dead!
And so one could go on, for anybody but SDA’s clear, to show they only, “peculiarly”, propagate the very negation of the true Protestant conception of Jesus’ Priesthood!
“... the Bible truth that Christ has gone to heaven AFTER his crucifixion to be our High Priest and that the EARTHLY system of priests ended as His HEAVENLY priesthood began...”
GE:
Your quotes do NOT support the grotesque distortion you betray here with both subtleness and flagrancy.
Remove the word “began”, and change the words “to be”, to “being”, or “as”, and you have ‘the Bible truth that Christ has gone to heaven after his crucifixion, being, or as, our High Priest, and after that the earthly system of priests ended, as His HEAVENLY priesthood was declared “with power … by the resurrection of Him from the dead ... who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification, therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ BY WHOM ALSO WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO HIS GRACE ...” (Ro.1:4, 4:25, 5:1-2)
Observe how Paul describes what the writer of Hebrews calls the High Priestly Office of the High Priest of the Most High God – High Priest according to the Law of an endless life!
Therefore place and use your word “began” here, where it belongs qualitatively, where the beginning of all things “made”, really and truly begins – where all the works of God are finished and perfected – so also the High Priestly Work of Jesus Christ – where is in operation “the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe: Where God raises Christ from the dead!
Then, with all the saints of God, confess and proclaim:
... the Bible truth that Christ has gone to heaven after his crucifixion and after that He by His heavenly High Priesthood ended the earthly system of priests through the Law of an endless life, to be our High Priest for evermore!
Now in the light of this, re-consider what you have quoted:
“For the law made high priests who had the infirmities of men, for they were men themselves; the oath of God, which came after the law, establishes the Son, when He is perfected for ever, consecrated in heaven unto God.
[This we observe in His resurrection – GE]
We see here that, although there was an analogy and the figures of heavenly things, [not, “in heaven”, but on earth – GE] there is more of contrast than of comparison in this epistle. The legal priests had the same infirmities as other men; Jesus has a glorified priesthood according to the power of an endless life.
[Which Priesthood Jesus no doubt and presupposed as fact by Darby’s Commentary, HAD! – GE]
The introduction of this new priesthood, exercised in heaven, implies a change in the sacrifices and in the covenant. This the inspired writer develops here setting forth the value of the sacrifice of Christ, and the long-promised new covenant. The direct connection is with the sacrifices; but he turns aside for a moment to the two covenants, a so wide-embracing and all-weighty consideration for the Christian Jews who had been under the first.” End quote
GE:
Here’s your last-straw-hope, Bob Ryan, what this Commentary here describes as “this new priesthood, exercised in heaven”.
That Darby does not mean “in heaven” literally, is clear from the whole of its further explanation in the same passage quoted. And even though “in heaven” might be taken for literal, Darby does not present Jesus’ Priesthood exclusively “in heaven”, but only as in part and also as, “in heaven”, so that the same and unchanged and eternal High Priesthood of Jesus Christ executed and fulfilled on earth in the flesh of Him, is supposed and said to be continued “in heaven” – not to ‘begin’ as according to you!
Darby’s in fact demolishes your doctrine. It says “The direct connection is with the sacrifices” while it deems Jesus’ Priesthood as “in heaven”. The implication is undeniable: Jesus exercised and fulfilled the Office of Priest – the Office of ‘heavenly’ High Priest – when and while and where He “offered up HIMSELF” on earth!
The Commentary speaks of, “The introduction of this new priesthood, exercised in heaven”. “This new priesthood”, as already in existence, declared and confirmed in Christ while on earth and indeed as “from the dead” and from earthly grave “raised”, is now, after, also, ‘introduced’ and “exercised in heaven”.
What monstrous audacity of yours to claim Jesus not already possessed every virtue mediated on behalf of His own, when, and before, He was taken up into the heavens!
Listen to what Darby declares – the very negation of your view!
“Now it is not said, that we have "the good things to come." Christ has gone into heaven itself, the High Priest of those good things, securing their possession to them that trust in Him. But we have access to [18] God in the light by virtue of Christ's presence there. That presence is the proof of righteousness fully established; the blood, an evidence that our sins are put away for ever; and our conscience is made perfect. Christ in heaven is the guarantee for the fulfilment of every promise. He has opened an access for us, even now, to God in the light, having cleansed our consciences once for all -for He dwells on high continuously- that we may enter in, and that we may serve God here below.”
Darby says Jesus WAS High Priest BEFORE and exercised Priest in heaven, “the PROOF of righteousness fully ESTABLISHED”. You, claim, Jesus was NOT High Priest BEFORE; but somehow for no reason ever given “began” High Priest, after, without evidence whatsoever of righteousness gained, denying righteousness gained or established through High Priesthood of Christ when raised from the dead!
And so one could go on, for anybody but SDA’s clear, to show they only, “peculiarly”, propagate the very negation of the true Protestant conception of Jesus’ Priesthood!
</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for this Commentary - it brings to the fore some basic distinctive characteristics of the Priesthood of Christ.
I agree with this and have said the same many times:
"if Christ had remained on earth, the Levitical priesthood had remained, and so he would have been no priest".
But I don't agree with the explanation for this, and deny, "Christ's priesthood was not perfected on earth", or that "the Levitical priesthood remaining while he was on earth, proves he was not then a perfect priest",
Because, Christ's priesthood was perfected on earth when raised from the dead. In fact Jesus' resurrection is described as He being "perfected" - "perfected" in all Offices and Being;
Also I deny, because, the Levitical priesthood remaining while he was on earth, was incapable of availing anything, least of all of proving Christ was not then the perfect High Priest of the Most High God.
SDA:
Hebrews 8:
“4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.
9:
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
The sanctuary is seen to have two rooms – each has a ministry – each is explicitly described.
Calvinist:
Lie!
Lie, I say, because the sanctuary “seen” here, is NOT, the earthly sanctuary ‘on earth’, but The Heavenly Sanctuary of Jesus’ own Divine Being, that has NO ‘rooms’, and which “has a ministry”, “explicitly described”, to quote:-
“24 For Christ did NOT, enter a holy place made with hands.” Quote closed.
He did NOT, enter a mere copy of The True Sanctuary of which the earthly was the only ever. But He entered into ‘heaven’ itself, namely where “now he appears in the Presence of God”!
Christ “from the dead” was raised to ascend, first of all to, and into, the presence of God, “now”, immediately, in and with and through and being, raised from the dead, from death, and from the grave!
This Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, this ‘In-The-Presence-Of-God-Himself’, IS:- “The True Sanctuary, IS, “in heaven itself”.
He, “The True Sanctuary in heaven itself”, “now appears” “for us” to in Him be, “in the presence of God”.
Even HE, is THE “In-The-Presence-Of-God” – the “in-the-presence-of-God-FOR-US”.
It is “Jesus” – “Immanuel-God-With-Us”; Jesus, “God-FOR-us”; Jesus, “God-to-US-ward”; Jesus, “God-to-us-ward-WORKING”.
It is “God in Christ” – “Christ our Righteousness”; Christ “WHO IS OUR PEACE”.
This –even HE, IS, our Sacrifice and our Atonement and our Reconciliation and our Forgiveness of sins – “Christ all in all”!
This –even He, is Jesus, “Christ when God raised Him from the dead”!
This –even HE, God-to-us-ward-THUS-working, is God – God entering into His own Rest; God, making an end of reconciliation, God in His own Presence, even in His own Being, even in His own body, making Final Atonement, “for us”!
This is ‘heaven’; this is ‘in’ heaven, and this Jesus, is The True Sanctuary of God in His Own Being.
"Christ entering Christ" ... it is your perception, not mine! But if that is the impression I created, I accept resposibility.
Hebrews 8:
“4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.
9:
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
The sanctuary is seen to have two rooms – each has a ministry – each is explicitly described.
Calvinist:
Lie!
Lie, I say, because the sanctuary “seen” here, is NOT, the earthly sanctuary ‘on earth’, but The Heavenly Sanctuary of Jesus’ own Divine Being, that has NO ‘rooms’, and which “has a ministry”, “explicitly described”, to quote:-
“24 For Christ did NOT, enter a holy place made with hands.” Quote closed.
He did NOT, enter a mere copy of The True Sanctuary of which the earthly was the only ever. But He entered into ‘heaven’ itself, namely where “now he appears in the Presence of God”!
Christ “from the dead” was raised to ascend, first of all to, and into, the presence of God, “now”, immediately, in and with and through and being, raised from the dead, from death, and from the grave!
This Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, this ‘In-The-Presence-Of-God-Himself’, IS:- “The True Sanctuary, IS, “in heaven itself”.
He, “The True Sanctuary in heaven itself”, “now appears” “for us” to in Him be, “in the presence of God”.
Even HE, is THE “In-The-Presence-Of-God” – the “in-the-presence-of-God-FOR-US”.
It is “Jesus” – “Immanuel-God-With-Us”; Jesus, “God-FOR-us”; Jesus, “God-to-US-ward”; Jesus, “God-to-us-ward-WORKING”.
It is “God in Christ” – “Christ our Righteousness”; Christ “WHO IS OUR PEACE”.
This –even HE, IS, our Sacrifice and our Atonement and our Reconciliation and our Forgiveness of sins – “Christ all in all”!
This –even He, is Jesus, “Christ when God raised Him from the dead”!
This –even HE, God-to-us-ward-THUS-working, is God – God entering into His own Rest; God, making an end of reconciliation, God in His own Presence, even in His own Being, even in His own body, making Final Atonement, “for us”!
This is ‘heaven’; this is ‘in’ heaven, and this Jesus, is The True Sanctuary of God in His Own Being.
"Christ entering Christ" ... it is your perception, not mine! But if that is the impression I created, I accept resposibility.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is instructive that the "that has no rooms" comment is just MADE UP!! Since there is no quote of scripture saying "HAS NO ROOMS" you simply pontificate it -- without the slightest need to quote scripture, prove your point, establish your argument beyond your own ability to make stuff up!
How in the world do you expect to carry on a meaningful discussion using such methods??!!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As the commentaries point out Christ never entered the holy or most holy place of the sanctuary on earth.
As the commentaries point out while the one system of priesthood is in effect - the other is not. Christ was not a priest on earth and did not officiate as one.
As the text of scripture points out EVEN if He were on earth TODAY HE would not serve as priest - HIS PRIESTHOOD is in HEAVEN in the TRUE sanctuary.
And the point has been (from the beginning) that the ATONEMENT involves the sacrifice of Christ at the cross (the atoning sacrifice) and the work of Christ in heaven for us as High Priest.
In all of the SCIRPTURE GIVEN showing Christ IN HEAVEN as High Priest and in all the COMMENTARIES given SHOWING Christ IN HEAVEN as our high priest --- we see the HEAVENLY work of Christ as High Priest - NOT an earthly one!
The point remains.
In Christ,
Bob
As the commentaries point out while the one system of priesthood is in effect - the other is not. Christ was not a priest on earth and did not officiate as one.
As the text of scripture points out EVEN if He were on earth TODAY HE would not serve as priest - HIS PRIESTHOOD is in HEAVEN in the TRUE sanctuary.
And the point has been (from the beginning) that the ATONEMENT involves the sacrifice of Christ at the cross (the atoning sacrifice) and the work of Christ in heaven for us as High Priest.
In all of the SCIRPTURE GIVEN showing Christ IN HEAVEN as High Priest and in all the COMMENTARIES given SHOWING Christ IN HEAVEN as our high priest --- we see the HEAVENLY work of Christ as High Priest - NOT an earthly one!
The point remains.
In Christ,
Bob