Seventh Day Adventists and Baptism

[carpro]

Why do candidates for baptism in the Seventh Day Adventist Church have to recognize Ellen White as a prophetess to be baptised?

 

[BobRyan]

They don't

 

[carpro]

OK

Who does this question, asked of candidates for Baptism, refer to?

"Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?"

 

[Jim1999]

I think the Seventh Day Adventists are as different from church to church as are the Baptists, or any other denomination. They all seem to have a hang up on the ten commandments and Old Testament rituals, especially some laws established by Israel, but aside from that I found little difference in the worship services I have attended.

Since retirement from ministry, I have taken opportunities to visit various denominations in practice. It has been quite enlightening, compared to getting my information from books, often quite prejudiced against the various denominations.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[carpro]

Good point, Jim.

Have you had occasion to personally witness the SDA examination of a candidate for baptism?

 

[Jim1999]

Carpro,

Sorry, I have not. I did talk at length with a neighbour who is Adventist, and I saw no difference to what he said and what a baptist would say. Not once did Ellen White enter the picture.

cheers,

Jim

 

[carpro]

You did notice that the question, as asked, doesn't mention Ellen White.

"Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?"


Who do you think they are referring to?

I'm sure there are a number of SDAs posting here. Surely one of them will tell us.

 

[carpro]

Hmmmm...

Seems to be a subject our SDAs don't want to touch.

 

[carpro]

They don't

Sorry, Bob, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I'll have to go with what the SDA manual says.

SDA candidates clearly do have to recognize Ellen White as a prophet to be baptized.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry - about being away from the computer for the past week. I am back!

Rev 12
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus

Rev 19
10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ""Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.''

SDAs are rqeuired to accept this teaching of scripture. Notice that the text does not say "someday - 1900 years from now - the people of God will keep His commandments and at that time hold to the testimony of Jesus - but not until then".

Because of that - many SDAs have joined holding to this truth of scripture without also holding that Ellen White was among those given the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy that is promised here.

 

[carpro]

My question was: "Why do candidates for baptism in the Seventh Day Adventist Church have to recognize Ellen White as a prophetess to be baptised?"

They don't

Now you are saying they do.

Are you deliberately trying to confuse me?

 

[tamborine lady]

Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy

:type:

Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, not Ellen White. They are asking if you believe in Jesus and future Prophecy. Not do you believe in Ellen White. There is a difference, and I'm sure if that's what they meant they would say that. (Especially in the privacy of their church or the Pastors office.)

However, they are not quick to talk about Ellen and her writings unless you ask.

If you ever go to one of their churches and hear this phrase "one of my favorite authors" they ARE talking about Ellen.

Peace,

Tam

 

[carpro]

:type:

Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, not Ellen White. They are asking if you believe in Jesus and future Prophecy. Not do you believe in Ellen White. There is a difference, and I'm sure if that's what they meant they would say that. (Especially in the privacy of their church or the Pastors office.)


Peace,

Tam

Not according to their manual which says under Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists

18. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction....

Is subterfuge at work here to obtain new church members?

 

[BobRyan]

:type:

Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, not Ellen White.

True - but more specifically God the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of Prophecy".

So the doctrinal statement is simply that the 1Cor12 gift mentioned in Rev 19:10 would always be part of the church. It is not a "prediction that some day in the future the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy would exist".

Having said that - it is "also true" the SDA church does admit that Ellen White was given that 1Cor 12 gift.

It is also true that she wrote an early set of books compiling visions she was given and titled the book series "The Spirit of Prophecy". Not as a claim that "books ARE the Spirit of Prophecy" but rather as a claim that God the Holy Spirit had inspired the visions reported in those books. In the same way that we would say that God the Holy Spirit authors the 1Cor 12 gifts and the giftst found in the Church of Corinth in 1Cor 14.


Given that many Adventists admit that Ellen White was among those in the NT church given that gift over the ages - it is not surprising that they make that connection. Belief #17 points to that fact in the 27 Fundamental Beliefs is stated in this way.

Belief #17
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.—Fundamental Beliefs, 17


However that belief is not in the standard 13 baptismal vows published in 1990.

Interestingly - the first example of this gift given in that chapter is this --

Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, was distressed. Enemy troops were closing in, and the outlook seemed hopeless. "And Jehoshaphat . . . set himself to seek the Lord, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah" (2 Chron. 20:3). The people began streaming to the Temple to beg mercy and deliverance of God.
As Jehoshaphat led out in the prayer service, he called upon God to change the circumstances. He prayed: "'Are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?'" (verse 6). Hadn't God specially protected His own in the past? Hadn't He given this land to His chosen people? So Jehoshaphat pleaded, "'O our God, will You not judge them? For we have no power . . . nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are upon You'" (verse 12).
As all Judah stood before the Lord, one Jahaziel arose. His message brought courage and direction to the fearful people. He said, "'Do not be afraid. . . for the battle is not yours, but God's. . . . You will not need to fight in this battle. Position yourselves, stand still and see the salvation of the Lord, . . . for the Lord is with you'" (verse 15-17). In the morning King Jehoshaphat told his troops to "'Believe in the Lord your God, and you shall be established; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper'" (verse 20).1
So fully did this king believe that little-known prophet, Jahaziel, that he replaced his front-line troops with a choir singing praise to the Lord and the beauty of holiness! As the anthems of faith filled the air, the Lord was at work bringing confusion among the armies allied against Judah. The slaughter was so great that "no one . . . escaped" (verse 24).

Jahaziel was God's mouthpiece for that special time.

Tam - speaking of the Baptismal Vows in the SDA church said --
They are asking if you believe in Jesus and future Prophecy. Not do you believe in Ellen White. There is a difference, and I'm sure if that's what they meant they would say that. (Especially in the privacy of their church or the Pastors office.)

That is true. In fact from the 1800's Ellen White herself was very adamant that acceptance of the gift she had been given was not to be a "Test of fellowship" such that no person could be denied membership for rejecting the fact that Ellen White had been given that 1Cor 12 gift.

Hence the wording in vow #8 is broad enough to "include" all prophetic gifts in the NT church for the past 2000 years - but does not specifically single out Ellen White.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Is subterfuge at work here to obtain new church members?

New Baptist church members or new SDA ones?

The SDA model is to go through the 27 FB (which are much more detailed than the Baptismal vows) prior to baptizing members. So while they are only required to "agree" with the 13 statements in the 1990 set of vows to join-- they are in fact "informed" on all 28 beliefs. If that is subterfuge then I missed the lecture on that definition for subterfuge.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[carpro]

Hence the wording in vow #8 is broad enough to "include" all prophetic gifts in the NT church for the past 2000 years - but does not specifically single out Ellen White.

In Christ,

Bob

Since you definitely believe that Ellen White is a prophet as stated in:

"Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists

18. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction...."

and she is the only prophet mentioned, it follows that question #8 refers to her and a candidate for baptism has to answer "yes" recognizing her as a prophet or they cannot be baptized into the SDA.

Not asking the question directly but getting the desired answer by hiding the true question is subterfuge.

 

[carpro]

New Baptist church members or new SDA ones?

In Christ,

Bob

No Baptist I know of recognizes the false prophet, Ellen White, or any other prophet not mentioned in the Bible either.

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 

[BobRyan]

Nice "spin" Capro -

My point is that the Baptismal vows do not require that one admit that the 1Cor 12 gift of the Holy Spirit that refers to "prophecy" is one that was given to Ellen White.

The point remains.

What of the NT prophets in 1Cor 14 - never named but all admitted too by Paul - do you deny them as well? Agabus? Philip's daughters?

"Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but especially that you may prophesy 1 Cor 14:1. Is that also one to "deny"?

How much of the NT does one need to "deny" to be a Christian in your view?

What are your thoughts?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[carpro]

I think you made a good effort at spin as well.

So how about just an outright question?

Do you believe Ellen White to be a prophet? And Why?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I accept that she had the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy. I also admit that the gifts of the Spirit continue in God's plan for the Church as Eph 4 states.

But back to your OP - I do not agree that the language of statement 8 in the SDA Baptismal vows requires that a new member accept the fact that God gave Ellen White the gift of prophecy. IT DOES require that they accept the Eph 4 continued viability of the 1Cor 12 gifts and even the text of 1Cor 14:1.

Ellen White conforms to the test of a prophet the FIRST of which is that the visions and doctrines coming from those visions are in complete harmony with scripture.

In Christ,

Bob