BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Your argument is "with the text".
Romans 2:4-16 does a pretty good job of "explaining" that very point.
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Seventh-day Adventists continued...
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Your argument is "with the text".
Romans 2:4-16 does a pretty good job of "explaining" that very point.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The BIBLE will not fit your 'yes/no gaming model' - but here we have the Bible "anyway" for your proposal above that I become Catholic and then what consequence.
Knowing that "sin IS transgression of the LAW" ? 1 John 3:4
Knowing that "rebellion is not LOVE for God" since 1 John 5:2-3 says that "3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."
Knowing that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19??
Knowing that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
Knowing that "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is SIN" James 4:17?
Knowing that Jesus is "LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27?
So you are saying if I were to reject all of scripture and become a Catholic "would I still be saved"???
Are you even serious??
Of course that would not be the path of salvation - that would be rejecting the Word of God.
Even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.
You knew that right?
Your argument is "with the text"... which is why you are ignoring them so far.
I love it when we are both happy with that result!! nice.
Knowing that "sin IS transgression of the LAW" ? 1 John 3:4
Knowing that "rebellion is not LOVE for God" since 1 John 5:2-3 says that "3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."
Knowing that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19??
Knowing that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
Knowing that "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is SIN" James 4:17?
Knowing that Jesus is "LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27?
So you are saying if I were to reject all of scripture and become a Catholic "would I still be saved"???
Are you even serious??
Of course that would not be the path of salvation - that would be rejecting the Word of God.
Even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.
You knew that right?
Your argument is "with the text"... which is why you are ignoring them so far.
I love it when we are both happy with that result!! nice.
This is the typical answer when a person cannot answer the questions which challenge their thought process.
Still waiting.....
All you have to do is explain how these "good works" tie in with salvation being "not of yourselves". We wait your response.......
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Would you like me to quote Eph 2:8-10 for you again or Romans 2:4-16??
Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Because as Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Easy.
What's not to get?
With all your post you gave no explanation as to why Eph 2 declares salvation is "not of yourselves". You preach salvation is of works. Are these works of yourself or not? If they are, then you need to explain the Word which declares salvation is "not of yourselves". This you have not done, you have only pointed to more works. I can point to all kinds of works throughout the Scriptures, anyone can, the challenge is, how do you interpret those works within the context of salvation which Eph 2 declares salvation is "not of yourselves" ?
You must have come up with a logical answer for this, surely you would not just ignore the "not of yourselves". Your post seems to suggest salvation is by works since all you did was reference more works passages as if piling on the works passages will somehow cause the "not of yourselves" passage to be dismissed.
Let me put this very simply. Ehp 2 tells us salvation is "not of yourselves". So all one has to do is explain how any works that I do or that God commands me to do is "not of myself".
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"BobRyan, post: 2378863, member: 2969"]No problem -- here it is again.
Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.
For example - I do not believe that all Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17
so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".
I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.
all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.
the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
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BobRyan said: ↑
Your argument is "with the text".
Romans 2:4-16 does a pretty good job of "explaining" that very point.
Would you like me to quote Eph 2:8-10 for you again or Romans 2:4-16??
Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Because as Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Easy.
What's not to get?
What's not to get?
You quote yourself.
Read the texts -- show us what you find hard to get.
Romans 8
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Notice that in all our discussions I never say to "fine... I will believe the Bible as soon as you explain it to me
=================================
I love this thread...
Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.
For example - I do not believe that all Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17
so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".
I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.
all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.
the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
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BobRyan said: ↑
Your argument is "with the text".
Romans 2:4-16 does a pretty good job of "explaining" that very point.
[/quote]
Would you like me to quote Eph 2:8-10 for you again or Romans 2:4-16??
Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Because as Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Easy.
What's not to get?
What's not to get?
[/quote]
You quote yourself.
Read the texts -- show us what you find hard to get.
Romans 8
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Notice that in all our discussions I never say to "fine... I will believe the Bible as soon as you explain it to me
=================================
I love this thread...
That's not what this is Bob. You keep re-posting your works scriptures as if they somehow dismiss God's Word stating salvation is "not of yourselves...not of works".
You have not addressed the matter at all, you only choose to ignore the part where God says salvation is "not of yourselves". Rather than deal with this you ignore it and post scripture trying to convince the reader that salvation certainly is of yourselves and you could care less what Eph 2 has to say about it.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".
It is clear these "good works" are not part of how one is saved, but rather an attribute of one's salvation, becoming God's workmanship. There simply can be no alternative take away.
Martin Luther was a Catholic. As he observed the establishment becoming more and more focused on a works based salvation it troubled him deeply. Paul was crystal clear, no room for any debate actually, salvation is "not of yourselves...not of works". This should trouble any honest truth seeking bible student as well. All Catholics, SDA, Mormon and JW should really spend some quit time with God on Eph 2:8-10. There is no way anyone could not see the error in salvation by works without simply ignoring this text as well as a many others penned on justification by works.
What is puzzling is why SDAs and Catholics continue to work so diligently on a works based salvation when God flatly says salvation is "not of yourselves...not of works".
I love this thread...
I do as well.
Do you love God's Word enough to deal with Eph 2? Or will you continue to ignore it hoping it will go away if you bury it with enough works and commandments scriptures?
IOW, if you purposefully and willfully and indefinitely engaged in something you believe is a sin, would you have assurance of your salvation?
What kind of question is that? LOL
The answer to the question reveals where the person's hope of salvation lies. In the works of himself or in the works of Jesus Christ. What is your answer to the question?
Saved by faith, but kept by keeping the law, ie, the Sabbath and Ellen Whites rules and regulations!
The Sabbath day for him and reformed Baptists would be Sunday, the Lord Day.
And we are obligated to keep the moral law, not in order to get or stay saved, but dueto us being now new creatures in Christ desiring to please God!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I agree with both of those statements.
They affirm all TEN of the TEN Commandments and claim that the Sabbath commandment is still binding on all mankind as it was in Eden - but now "edited" to point to week-day-1. They also agree with calling week-day-1 the LORD's Day even though the Bible never does such a thing.
So then - You are claiming to agree with them?
In that case you agree with me on these points.
1. The Seventh-day Sabbath - Saturday began in Eden and applied to all mankind then and now.
2. The Sabbath Commandment of Exodus 20 - was for Saturday
3. The Ten Commandments are part of the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.
4. The Ten Commandments are still binding for all mankind to this very day and are included in what the Bible calls the "Commandments of God".
The only point of difference then is that - I don't think God's Law can be edited by tradition -- but if you notice carefully all the "heated debate" comes from those first four points.
Notice how often when I bring up those first 4 points the response is that Ellen White is the one promoting them.
Very "instructive"
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And THAT my friend is the glaringly obvious point to all readers of this thread.
turning to rebellion is not the sign of someone who is "persevering" in Christ.
In fact 1 John 2 flatly rejects that sort of gospel
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If you cannot engage in a Bible discussion where is the incentive to join you in a topic where you know even less??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.
For example - I do not believe that all Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17
so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".
I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.
all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.
the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
=====================================================
Would you like me to quote Eph 2:8-10 for you again or Romans 2:4-16??
Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Because as Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.
Romans 8
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Notice that in all our discussions I never say to "fine... I will believe the Bible as soon as you explain it to me
Interesting -- is that the part of the Bible you oppose?
False.
I keep quoting (as in the post and texts you just "dismissed")
Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
And we both know it.
Indeed that is pretty obvious - just as you say.
If you were more interested in conversation and less in 'gaming' we could have that sort of discussion all day long.
No one who willfully violates his conscience can have assurance of salvation.
Since you asked me, my hope of Salvation is only in Christ Jesus. He is my righteousness, and my advocate and my mediator.
Once Christ has bought me, there is no one that can take me from him. Not even me, myself. I am like the bondservant described in the law who loves his master and is willing to live as His slave forever. I bear His mark, My ears are opened. IOW, an awl was driven through my ears making a permanent opening and marking me as His servant forever.
If Hell can't steal me, can I steal myself? LOL. And even if I run away, He will seek me, and take me back by force, because I am His property, and if I die under His scourge as a disobedient servant, I die His servant, not the Devil's.
By the same token, neither is self-righteousness a sign. One is either joined to Christ or not, and the sign of that union is love. But that is a sign to others, not ourselves. The only assurance we have comes from the Spirit, who bears witness with our spirit, the we are His children.
That is the only real assurance.
It is not out of character with God to turn His children over to the Devil for a while for the destruction of that self-righteousness, that their spirits may be saved. But this is God's doing, not ours.
I must also point out, that salvation is the work of Christ, and it is a permanent and eternal work.
I reject the "Once Saved Always Saved" nomenclature, because that is used to describe a heinous doctrine that turns grace into license.
I prefer "The Perseverance of the Saints." The saints will persevere. But that, too, is because of Christ, and not any will or strength of their own.
O love that will not let me go,
I rest my weary soul in thee.
I rest my weary soul in thee.
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