Seventh-Day Adventists

[BobRyan]

If keeping the Sabbath is so important then what about all the other rules in the bible? What about the levitical law? Do 7th day adventists also keep all these hundreds of rules from the OT?

This gets back to the "good bible" vs "Bad bible" idea. It is as if "all agree that Leviticus is part of the Bad bible" and the argument is of the form -- "So if we don't agree to junk the Old Testament then we might have to obey a part of the bad bible -- how else would we get out of it?""

But a Bible "believing" Christians needs a much better solution than that for turning a blind eye to certain parts of scripture.

That is why I point out on the first page the SDAs must accept and ENTIRE Bible - not just popular snippets of it.

And that puts them in some unpopular doctrinal positions. We must ACCEPT and HONOR God's Word in all cases - so when He tells us in Heb 10 that Christ put a STOP to all sacrifices and offering through his own sacrifice we can believe it. Then when we SEE in Lev 23 that the sacrificial system and the annual holy days are based on each other - we see that with the stop of the sacrifices - ends those holy days.

It is easy once you take the path of ACCEPTING all the Bible - but if you solution is "junk the parts you don't like" then I agree - you have to toss out the ten commandments to avoid all those other things that are not popular

 

[BobRyan]

Hi

I believe when we start to focus on the 'letter of the law' we begin to create a idol of the law and thus quickly loose sight of the 'spirit of the law' which is as the Apostle Paul stated so beautifully:

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. - Romans 13:8

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith??? God Forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

With regards to the Sabbath I believe I look at honoring God on the 'last day of every week' as the most important observance here not in a rigorist attempt to keep to calendars long past and full of errors. I mean honestly we can't be sure that today is really the Sabbath because of all the changes and old errors with calendars throughout history. It is thus a pious gesture which we extend to 'the last day of the week' which in this culture happens to be Sunday.

Is it your claim that IF we KNEW what day Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we KNEW what day was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath to study the bible -- if you KNEW what day God referenced in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow IS the Sabbath" ... if you KNEW what day Christ the Creator blessed "and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would actually keep it??

Somebody here would actually say that??!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a post made on another forum, not by me but someone else. This provides some rather interresting information about the SDA.

( They publish their own Bible and insert their own doctrines in the text.

Fulfilled: The Seventh-day Adventist Church publishes The Clear Word Bible. It is a cultic Bible that does not separate the Bible text from the author’s personal commentary, opinions, which slants the text to agree with the writings of Ellen G. White and whatever else to make the text say what he wants it to say. This corrupt piece of work, makes the Word of God unclear to the reader.

The SDA's NEVER quote the Ten Commandments from Deuteronomy, because of the following verse.

the "half-truth" mixed with "total disinformation" approach that you are taking here is not helping to establish credibility for you failed claims.

1 - SDA have written NO BIBLE TRANSLATION. There are paraphrase versions around that -- Like the living Bible - are one man's paraphrase of scripture BUT NOT an actual Bible translation.

To claim that you do not know the difference between an actual translation and a paraphrase is to say more about you than those you seek to accuse.

2. When SDAs want to quote what was said FORTY YEARS AFTER Sinai - they reference the text of Deut 4 and 5. When they want to quote what GOD SAID AT Sinai they quote Ex 20.

The reason for that is - exegesis - paying attention to what the text says IT IS DOING!

This may be a new idea for you given the way you have been constructing your points so far - but I highly recommend it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Fundamental,

we dont believe in Original Sin or Once Saved Always Saved... neither one

However we do believe in the sinful nature of man and that all mankind is born - lost and in need of salvation.

we do not believe that man can of his own self do right due to the Romans 3 depravity attributed to the sinful nature.

It is only the fact that "God Draws all mankind unto him" John 12;32 that mankind is enabled to choose to OPEN the door as Christ stands knocking.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Claudia_T,

I'm sorry you are getting annoyed but, to be frank, I would like to get a response from you concerning my post.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of a doubt if you just talk and don't flood me with really long posts of canned apologetics. Fair enough? :saint:

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.

Sounds good to me!

 

[BobRyan]

Of course, if one desired, as a pious gesture, to honor the Lord on Saturday I personally have no issue with such an act as long as it is done for the honor and glory of God. I say "More power to ya!" :thumbsup:

On the other hand, if one brother or sister sought to impose such a practice on everyone else I would be quick to point to the personal liberty we have been given in Christ to observe our own form of piety (be it dietary, calendar observance or anything else).

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.

Since the Ten Commandments tend to come under fire when we mention Christ the Creator's Sabbath Commandment - what if we take your example above and apply it to another commandment.


Try the one about images - for example. The RCC chooses to exercise the freedom they have in Christ to ignore that one - and use images in worship. Does that mean it is still wrong - or does it become right in that case?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When does a weekend end?

i vote for Sunday night. Is God open for a vote on this?

 

[BobRyan]

Claudia_T,
If you don't believe in Original then how did man fall?

the story of the fall of Adam in Gen 3 is literally true and shows how mankind fell - literally true.

But when we talk about original sin we mean that God does not charge all mankind with the sin of Adam - but yet all mankind is born SINFUL with a sinFUL nature and in need of Salvation. Infants need a Savior and they HAVE one - so no limbo threat, no purgatory for unbaptized infants for example.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The fact is Bob, that neither you nor any other SDA has ever been able to show me any command for a NT Christain or a Gentile Christian to keep the Sabbath before the return of Christ. You can't do it.
We are not speaking of the law or pre-law dispensations. We are speaking of the here and now--after the cross and before the Second Coming. Where is the command to keep the Sabbath? Where is your evidence?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:
"Is it your claim that IF we KNEW what day Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we KNEW what day was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath to study the bible -- if you KNEW what day God referenced in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow IS the Sabbath" ... if you KNEW what day Christ the Creator blessed "and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would actually keep it??
Somebody here would actually say that??!!"

GE:
Bob, have you, written this? I cannot believe! What about you saying, applying it ALL, to 'Christ the SAVIOUR'? Is it your claim that if we knew WHAT DAY Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we knew WHAT DAY was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath study the bible -- if you knew WHAT DAY God referred to in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow is the SABBATH" ... if you knew WHAT DAY Christ the SAVIOUR, "blessed and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would REFUSE keeping it in remembrance of the "exercis(ing) of the exceeding greatness of his power when He raised Christ from the dead"?
Somebody here would actually say that and not reach THIS ultimate conclusion??!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Coined by Bound: "canned apologetics"! Fantastic, hey I enjoy it! Yea, take five, man!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Cloned:

"Originally Posted by xdisciplex
If keeping the Sabbath is so important then what about all the other rules in the bible? What about the levitical law? Do 7th day adventists also keep all these hundreds of rules from the OT?



This gets back to the "good bible" vs "Bad bible" idea. It is as if "all agree that Leviticus is part of the Bad bible" and the argument is of the form -- "So if we don't agree to junk the Old Testament then we might have to obey a part of the bad bible -- how else would we get out of it?""

But a Bible "believing" Christians needs a much better solution than that for turning a blind eye to certain parts of scripture.

That is why I point out on the first page the SDAs must accept and ENTIRE Bible - not just popular snippets of it. ..."

GE:

Bob, this here last sentence of yours is your best answer to Xdisciplex. Every party in debate should "accept and ENTIRE Bible - not just popular snippets of it. ..." whichever may be popular to whomever.

You have your own as do your opponents. Nothing wrong with that (we all have our favourites). But the danger is we with time get to only see what we like to see in these our very favourites!

And allow me to play critic of both sides here, and say that both have Christ-blurring glasses on. The 'ENTIRE BIBLE' speaks of Jesus Christ, including Gn2-3 - to use one of your favourites as an example. And Xdisciplex should keep that in mind as much as you, then you won't be at loggerheads, but in total agreement the Sabbath spans all dispensations and reaches uttermost ends in Christianity.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"Try the one about images - for example. The RCC chooses to exercise the freedom they have in Christ to ignore that one - and use images in worship. Does that mean it is still wrong - or does it become right in that case?"

GE:
Since this thread is about Seventh Day Adventists, what of the many images of 'Jesus' in your books and pictures on your walls?

 

[Claudia_T]

Hi Claudia_T (sorry I missed the 'T' on my previous post I was not trying to be fresh.)

I don't think you'll get much of an argument from anyone here concerning 'Love always being the foundation' but I do believe that what I would say is that the law was meant to establish a society 'in love'. Unfortunately, the letter of the law became more important than the spirit of the law and 'the society in love' was lost.

I believe when we start to focus on the 'letter of the law' we begin to create a idol of the law and thus quickly loose sight of the 'spirit of the law' which is as the Apostle Paul stated so beautifully:

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. - Romans 13:8

With regards to the Sabbath I believe I look at honoring God on the 'last day of every week' as the most important observance here not in a rigorist attempt to keep to calendars long past and full of errors. I mean honestly we can't be sure that today is really the Sabbath because of all the changes and old errors with calendars throughout history. It is thus a pious gesture which we extend to 'the last day of the week' which in this culture happens to be Sunday.

Of course, if one desired, as a pious gesture, to honor the Lord on Saturday I personally have no issue with such an act as long as it is done for the honor and glory of God. I say "More power to ya!" :thumbsup:

On the other hand, if one brother or sister sought to impose such a practice on everyone else I would be quick to point to the personal liberty we have been given in Christ to observe our own form of piety (be it dietary, calendar observance or anything else).

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.

Just because Love is the SUMMARY of the Law doesnt mean you would get rid of the Sabbath or change it anymore than you would the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. What are you going to do, change it to "Thou shalt not kill except on Sundays"? That makes no sense.

I'll come back and say something about your "personal liberty" thing later unless I go through Bob Ryan's comments and see that he already said something about it..


And sorry about some "canned responses". I have carpal tunnel syndrome, from being a web designer and at times its just easier to copy and paste something... if it gets the same point across. I just figure a Bible verse is a Bible verse...


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

BR:
"Try the one about images - for example. The RCC chooses to exercise the freedom they have in Christ to ignore that one - and use images in worship. Does that mean it is still wrong - or does it become right in that case?"

GE:
Since this thread is about Seventh Day Adventists, what of the many images of 'Jesus' in your books and pictures on your walls?

well obviously we dont pray to them and worship them

 

[Claudia_T]

The fact is Bob, that neither you nor any other SDA has ever been able to show me any command for a NT Christain or a Gentile Christian to keep the Sabbath before the return of Christ. You can't do it.
We are not speaking of the law or pre-law dispensations. We are speaking of the here and now--after the cross and before the Second Coming. Where is the command to keep the Sabbath? Where is your evidence?

Just commanding you to keep the 10 commandments (the law of God) ought to be enough for you. Since the 7th day Sabbath does happen to be one of the 10. (the 4th)



1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is Bob, that neither you nor any other SDA has ever been able to show me any command for a NT Christain or a Gentile Christian to keep the Sabbath before the return of Christ. You can't do it.

Christ said that the Sabbath was "MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27.

So know that at it's origin the making of the Sabbath and the making of mankind are both referenced and the Sabbath applies to all mankind at least at that point.

Isaiah 66 states that in the New Heavens and New Earth "ALL mankind will come before Me to worship FROM SABBATH TO SABBATH" -

so we see that BOTH at the origin AND into ALL eternity the Sabbath applies to "ALL mankind".

Your argument seems to be that "recently" God abolished what He GAVE TO Mankind "made FOR mankind" and will one day in the future GIVE IT BACK to mankind.

Your position is impossible to prove from scripture.

But for my posiition we have the texts listed here on this thread regarding the "Commandments of God" and the Saints -- prior to the 2nd coming and AFTER the Gospel events of Christ on earth - as I have already shown.

in Heb 4 we have "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" instead of "there is ABOLISHED therefore the Sabbath rest for the people of God".

We are not speaking of the law or pre-law dispensations. We are speaking of the here and now--after the cross and before the Second Coming. Where is the command to keep the Sabbath? Where is your evidence?

the texts I gave regarding "the Commandments of God" on this thread ARE spoken by Christ AND by the NT authors BEFORE the 2nd comding. (supposing here that you opt to ignore the "bad bible" sections that might have been written prior to the resurrection)

What more do you seek? A text that says "I really really really mean it"???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan:

GE:
Bob, have you, written this? I cannot believe! What about you saying, applying it ALL, to 'Christ the SAVIOUR'? Is it your claim that if we knew WHAT DAY Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we knew WHAT DAY was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath study the bible -- if you knew WHAT DAY God referred to in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow is the SABBATH" ... if you knew WHAT DAY Christ the SAVIOUR, "blessed and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would REFUSE keeping it in remembrance of the "exercis(ing) of the exceeding greatness of his power when He raised Christ from the dead"?
Somebody here would actually say that and not reach THIS ultimate conclusion??!!

GE - this is really much simpler than you make it out to be. Give me your honest answer for a second. WITHOUT your gimmick of trying to INSERT the fall mankind into day 6 of creation week (and then having God call THAT "good") - WHERE would your argument be??

Once we toss out that artifact from your string of arguments all of your complaints appear to fall apart.

What am I missing?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is Bob, that neither you nor any other SDA has ever been able to show me any command for a NT Christain or a Gentile Christian to keep the Sabbath before the return of Christ. You can't do it.
We are not speaking of the law or pre-law dispensations. We are speaking of the here and now--after the cross and before the Second Coming. Where is the command to keep the Sabbath? Where is your evidence?

Point of order -- SDAs are not the only ones upholding Christ the Creator's Sabbath memorial of HIS OWN creative acts in creation week -- the Seventh-day Baptists also uphold it. So this is not in fact a "distinction" between all baptist groups and SDAs.

Your argument above that "no SDA can show me that..." is equally true in your view with "no Baptist that keeps Christ's Sabbath - like the Seventh-day Baptists - can show me...". Basically this particular doctrinal point is not a distinctive difference between all Baptists and SDAs.

It is a doctrinal difference that is also fully INSIDE the Baptist groups even if there were NO SDAs.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BR:
"Try the one about images - for example. The RCC chooses to exercise the freedom they have in Christ to ignore that one - and use images in worship. Does that mean it is still wrong - or does it become right in that case?"

GE:
Since this thread is about Seventh Day Adventists, what of the many images of 'Jesus' in your books and pictures on your walls?

having a "picture depicting Jesus" is not a distinction of the SDA church vs Baptist nor even of Baptist vs Catholics.

My point is that REALLY using IMAGES in worship is as blatantly "in your face" against the 2nd commandment as one might wish for. Just like telling people NOT to honor Christ's Sabbath because to do so would be gospel-denying-legalism is as blatantly OPPOSED to the 4th commandment as one might ever hope to construct in argument against it.

Therefore I can use the Image worship idea to explore the SAME argument about "freedom in Christ to ignore it" as was being applied to the 4th commandment.

Bottom line -- my analogy works - your rabbit trail not withstanding sir.

In Christ,

Bob