Seventh-Day Adventists

[Claudia_T]

Yeah you gotta watch those culty SDAs who teach that you sleep in the grave till the second coming of Christ: :wavey:

1 Thess 4:
13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Mt:9:24: He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mk:5:39: And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Lk:8:52: And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Jn:11:11-13: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Acts:7:60: And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts:13:36: For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Cor:11:30: For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Cor:15:6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Cor:15:18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Cor:15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph:5:14: Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1Thes:5:10: Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2Pt:3:4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[Claudia_T]

Do Adventists believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven and that they will only be Seventh-day Adventists?
The answer is clearly “no”.

The Book of Revelation, a highly symbolic and visionary book of the Bible, mentions the number 144,000 in chapter 7. Though the Adventist Church has no official view on this issue, its scholars will point out that this number is most likely symbolic and represents the people of God.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that when Jesus Christ returns to earth for the second time, He will take to heaven His people. We also believe that faithful people from all ages, not just Adventists, are the people of God.

 

[Claudia_T]

ANYWAY back to those pesky thought-disturbing "Cultish" Seventh Day Adventists who teach that you sleep in the grave till the second coming of Christ (and they also have reasons they believe in the other teachings as well, of course... could it be because thats what the Bible teaches? Its a concept thing) The Christian World doesnt realize that their idea that when you die you go straight to heaven... well that came out of the Roman Catholic Church. Who adopted it from the pagan Greeks. :


"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:2.


"So man lieth down, and riseth not, till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job. 14:12.


"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will wait, till my change come." Job 14:14.


"If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.


"His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21.


"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.


"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5.


"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." Ecc. 9:6.


"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Ps. 115:17.


"For in death there is no remembrance of thee." Ps. 6:5.


"For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34.


"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19.


"As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness." Ps. 17:15.

 

[BobRyan]

This fellow did, and he is the main speaker of "It Is Written", the SDA's foremost mouthpiece. It was more by inference than a direct statement, never the less he said it. It was well documented by Ellen White one of their main founders, to whom they still pay great reverence.

They use the reference to Little Flock, and connect that to the 144,000 SDA's.

Inference is the act of the reader - not the speaker. you have spoken correctly in stating that YOU inserted that teaching into what was said.

It is in fact your work - not the work of SDAs. Adventists have never taught that only Adventists go to heaven or only Adventist make up the 144,000.

Adventists believe in a literal millennium - that starts with the FIRST resurrection which is the resurrection of the "Holy and blessed" Rev 20:5 the resurrection of the "DEAD IN CHRIST" 1Thess 4 who have "fallen asleep" 1Thess 4.

Adventists do not believe that the tribulation period that happens just before the second coming "has already happened" but they DO believe that the GREAT time of tribulation "the DARK AGES" has already happened. Those who find a way to turn a blind eye to the dark ages and the many centuries of persecution endured by the Christian church in that time - probably will object to admitting to this glaring fact of history.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

How about if you have to agree with all the Churches ordinances, and accept the teachings of their prophetess Ellen White as equal to the Bible, before you can become a member, does that spell - cult?.

The 27 (28 now) fundamental beliefs of the SDA church are published online for all Adventists to read - and all non-SDAs to read if they care to be accurate about accusations made against SDAs.

IF you HAD a quote saying what you slanderously claim - then it would not be slander. So far you have admitted to INSERTING your own ideas into what SDAs say and then blaming THEM for what YOU insert.

I would say that you have been fairly consistent in living up to that confession on your part.

SDAs do NOT claim that the writings of Ellen White should be read as an extension to the Bible or as text equal to the Bible.

"Church ordinances"??? Where in the world did you get that????!!!!

Oh that's right "inferences" -- the act of YOU inserting whatever pleases you to insert into the doctrinal statements of other groups so as to build a straw man for false accusations. Got it! No need to keep reminding us of it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There's Bob Ryan, I was starting to wonder what happen to the resident SDA...

never fear - BobRyan is here! :sleeping_2:

Of course Claudia was first to respond on this - credit where credit is due.:wavey:

We also have several others who post from time to time that are SDAs.:1_grouphug:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Claudia T, please carefully read what you have posted , again: "Yeah you gotta watch those culty SDAs who teach that you sleep in the grave till the second coming of Christ: :wavey:

1 Thess 4:
13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Now I shall highlight two clauses from this:
CT:
"SDAs who teach that you sleep in the grave";
Paul:
"them also which sleep in Jesus".

Am I clairvoyant or are you blind? Or am I just seeing what is written plainly in both cases?

 

[BobRyan]

I was going to respond to LeBuick that it is "more" surprising that we have not heard from GE on this thread than that we have not yet heard from BobRyan.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Samuel Owen:
"That only the 144,000 will actually go to Heaven (them of course), and the rest of us bums will only be allowed on the New Earth."

I consider myself a very lucky bum who will only be allowed on the New Earth, and I don't even have to be a SDA for that!

 

[Claudia_T]

The Protestant world doesnt realize just how far they have drifted away from true Protestantism.... and Seventh Day Adventists are here to inform them of that. They think we are a "Cult" because they themselves have drifted so far from the truth they dont recognize it when they hear it:



Immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that the Roman Catholic Church, borrowing from Greek paganism, adopted into the Christian Church. Martin Luther said it was one of the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Luther also said: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152.


and in regards to Sunday keeping replacing the trut 7th Day Sabbath of Protestantism Martin Luther said:

"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Calling a spade a spade: No saved or elect ever 'goes to heaven'. They are in heaven since being in Christ. That suffices for such simple folk -'bums'- like me.

 

[BobRyan]

Realizing that any ONE of the doctrinal differences that "actually exist" could be a thread of it's own -- I reply to this legit difference --

1Thess 4
Paul provides comfort to saints who (persons) have lost loved ones to death.

The entire discussion is about “people” not body parts!

The Bible teaches us that the body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that rises again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.

“Those who (persons) are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.

1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who(persons) have fallen asleep in Jesus.

God will “bring with him those who (persons) have fallen asleep”

The text does not say “God will bring with him those body parts that have fallen asleep” NOR does He say that we should not be uninformed about those body parts that have turned to dust – those body parts that have fallen asleep (as if dust itself is EVER said to be sleeping)

– There is no way to escape this – it is the person that is brought “with Christ” and so it is the person that is identified by the phrase “those WHO have fallen asleep”. Impossible to ignore. Impossible to turn to another usage.

Certainly it is true that in the case of “mortal man” when death occurs “the spirit returns to God who gave it” . And if indeed this is the “person” the essence of the person that is going to God – then at Christ’s return the spirit (which is the person in deceased form) is brought with Him to be united with a glorified body “The souls COME TO LIFE” Rev 20:2-3 at the “First resurrection” Rev 20:2-4.

1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede [b]those[/b] who have [b]fallen asleep.[/b]
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.[/b]
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

#1. Paul argues that the PERSON that has died is to be referred to as “The THOSE who ARE asleep”. “Those who HAVE fallen asleep”. He does not say “Those who have a body and IT fell asleep” – vs 13

#2. Paul argues that our HOPE concerning “those who have fallen asleep” is in the bodily resurrection of Christ! God will raise THEM along with Christ. And as he already said to this church in 1Cor 15 -- each in their own order. Christ at HIS resurrection and then the rest of the saints at the coming of the Lord.

#3. Paul then argues that those PEOPLE that we knew that have fallen asleep will in fact get taken before us -- for “The dead in Christ will rise FIRST”. So this assures us that they are not being left – in fact they are being taken BEFORE US to be WITH the Lord. But Paul says this happens at the coming of the Lord!! – vs 15

#4. All of the focus for our hope concerning the dead is on the “Coming of the Lord” and the fact of the bodily resurrection. No other “time” is offered in 1Thess 4 as the focus for our “hope” regarding those persons that have died! “The DEAD in Christ” is the term Paul uses to refer to “Those” whom we knew that have died. THOSE that we would be inclined to grieve over.

#5. They rise up and we are caught up WITH them and in THIS way shall the saints - all the saints – ever be “WITH” the Lord. Finally we see the mechanism for being “WITH” the Lord.. And Paul points to this focus on the resurrection taking place at the “Coming of the Lord” (the one John Calls the FIRST resurrection future to his day in Rev 20:4-5) as the event upon which our hope is placed. Christ does the same thing in John 14 “If I go away I will come again and receive you unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you (the person) may be ALSO”

 

[BobRyan]

duplicate deleted by me.

 

[BobRyan]

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (persons) are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

This text is not about “body parts turned to dust” but about PERSONS WHO are grieving about other persons WHO are asleep in death.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who (persons) are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT” . Lazarus “the person” IS asleep “HE has fallen asleep” – I go that I may wake “HIM” not merely “his body parts”. And by that Christ means “Lazarus HIMSELF IS dead” – the PERSON is actually dead. Not merely his “body parts” as would be the case of much-needed INSERT into the text “Lazarus is STILL alive but his body parts are dead”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Claudia T, you very well know this, ""And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake", isn't literal language, that it's symbolic. Is the resurrection just a waking up, not a re-creation out of nothing -"dust"? Then literally "sleep" cannot be taken for literal, that is, not for bein DEAD!

Well, I think you and the SDA's agree. So who's wrong? I feel both you and your adversaries. If Jesus says He is Life and he who has Him has Life, He means eternal life - the gift of redemption for evermore. And when a man dies in Christ his "life is hidden in Christ in God".

BUT I HAVE NEVER READ THIS BEING DECLARED OF THE LOST OR WICKED. They die (now) only to be raised again in order to receive eternal damnation -- whatever that may mean; it means being separated from the "Giver of Life", from the Creator of Light", from the Satisfaction of one's soul. Literal eternal blazes of fire -- that's nothing in comparison ...
W-E D-O N-O-T K-N-O-W ... and therein find comfort. (And frankly, sometimes when seeing man's cruelty and absolute wickedness, methinks eternal blazes of fire not sufficient punishment ... not for even myself. It's how we see sin, that possibly could explain an eternal heel-fire.)

 

[BobRyan]

SDAs do not claim that the person who has "fallen asleep" is literally just sleeping. We claim that the body parts are in fact decaying dust "not sleep" and that the PERSON in the form of the "spirit that returns to God who gave it" is in a dormant state of sleep - just as the term SLEEP obviously conveys a dormant - non-active state --- which is WHY the bible uses that term of the PERSON "WHO" dies.

Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Realizing that any ONE of the doctrinal differences that "actually exist" could be a thread of it's own -- I reply to this legit difference --

1Thess 4
Paul provides comfort to saints who (persons) have lost loved ones to death.

The entire discussion is about “people” not body parts!

The Bible teaches us that the body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that rises again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.

“Those who (persons) are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.



#1. Paul argues that the PERSON that has died is to be referred to as “The THOSE who ARE asleep”. “Those who HAVE fallen asleep”. He does not say “Those who have a body and IT fell asleep” – vs 13

#2. Paul argues that our HOPE concerning “those who have fallen asleep” is in the bodily resurrection of Christ! God will raise THEM along with Christ. And as he already said to this church in 1Cor 15 -- each in their own order. Christ at HIS resurrection and then the rest of the saints at the coming of the Lord.

#3. Paul then argues that those PEOPLE that we knew that have fallen asleep will in fact get taken before us -- for “The dead in Christ will rise FIRST”. So this assures us that they are not being left – in fact they are being taken BEFORE US to be WITH the Lord. But Paul says this happens at the coming of the Lord!! – vs 15

#4. All of the focus for our hope concerning the dead is on the “Coming of the Lord” and the fact of the bodily resurrection. No other “time” is offered in 1Thess 4 as the focus for our “hope” regarding those persons that have died! “The DEAD in Christ” is the term Paul uses to refer to “Those” whom we knew that have died. THOSE that we would be inclined to grieve over.

#5. They rise up and we are caught up WITH them and in THIS way shall the saints - all the saints – ever be “WITH” the Lord. Finally we see the mechanism for being “WITH” the Lord.. And Paul points to this focus on the resurrection taking place at the “Coming of the Lord” (the one John Calls the FIRST resurrection future to his day in Rev 20:4-5) as the event upon which our hope is placed. Christ does the same thing in John 14 “If I go away I will come again and receive you unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you (the person) may be ALSO”

GE:
Yea Bob; I think you have put it beautifully; I don't find wrong in what you have here said, and thank you for it.
But is it all that SDA have to offer on the subject-matter? I don't think so.

 

[Claudia_T]

The task of the Seventh Day Adventist Church is to call the people away from Babylon and back to true Protestantism. The Christian World has drifted so far from true Protestantism that she doesnt recognize the voice of God when she hears it and thinks we are a Cult.

They do not realize that by espousing the Sunday sabbath they are clasping the hand of the Roman Catholic Church which they slam continually for going by human tradition instead of by the Scriptures. Revelation 14:6-12 when it talks of the mark of the Beast tells us that God's people will "keep the commandments OF GOD" not the commandments OF MEN. Jesus spoke against human tradition Mk:7:9: "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

The Protestant World also dont realize that by espousing the idea that when we die we go straight to heaven instead of resting in the grave till the second coming of Christ... they have in doing so clasped the hand of Spiritualism... who has this doctrine as their very foundation.. that the dead are alive and thus you can communicate with them.


The Beast power would seek to change the Law of God...

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws. " Daniel 7.25.


The Sabbath commandment having to do with "time"... tells us the 7th day not the first day is the sabbath. It is NOT OKAY for the Church to think she has power to change the very 10 Commandments of God.


"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. " Exodus 20:8-1 1.


Open the Roman Catholic Catechism and look at the part dealing with the law of God, they have changed it. They left out the second commandment entirely and then they divided the tenth commandment into two parts, to try to make it still look like they kept theten commandments. Notice what they did to the 4th commandment though, the Sabbath. The time element has been removed, also which day is the Sabbath has been removed. here is what remains,


"Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.'
Let us read a most challenging statement made by the Church.

They have done exactly what God predicted they would do.


"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.


"The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.


The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.


"The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."-Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.


"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"


"Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.


"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.


"In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"Those who find a way to turn a blind eye to the dark ages and the many centuries of persecution endured by the Christian church in that time - probably will object to admitting to this glaring fact of history"

GE:
On a personal note:
I have recently attended a series of lectures by one of the great professors of the Dutch Reformed Church in SA, and he showed how the persecution of the first Chrsitians may actually have fulfilled the prophecy of the great tribulation as never before or after has been.
I think what you have said here also applies to that age, and not only to the dark ages.
I actually thought, this first persecution could also be one of those special gifts or signs of authenticity and authority of the Apostolic Age. It was a privilege and virtual prerogative of it!

Such another perscution just before Christ's second coming I am unable to find in Scripture -- not to say persecution and affliction are the believer's Christian heritage and legacy in any and all ages.

The seven last plagues I understand to be part and parcel of the doom of the damned - AFTER Jesus' return.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ClaudiaT:
"The Christian World has drifted so far from true Protestantism that she doesnt recognize the voice of God when she hears it and thinks we are a Cult."

GE:
The Seventh Day Adventist Church has drifted so far from Protestantism and towards Roman Catholicism that she doesnt recognize the voice of God when heared from any source not her own or contrary her own doctrine. She would not even recognise God's Voice spoken through 'the gift of prophecy' when warning or reproving her of 'greater' or 'further', 'light', and the challenge and re-appreciation of "each of (her) doctrines".

The SDA Church has truly fulfilled her own place in the world and history according to her own teaching with regard to the Seventh or last Church of Laodecea.