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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Amy.G said:
1 Timothy 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
4:5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (refer back to Acts 10)
You have taken this verse completely out of context. Let's look at the true meaning of the verse, in context!

1 Timothy 4:1-4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

In context Paul gives two examples of "doctrines of demons, that those who have departed from the faith practice.
1. One is forbidding to marry. The RCC is a good example of this. They (as a demonination or religious organization forbid their people, or at least a portion of their people to remain celibate. They cannot marry. This is a doctrine of demons. It is an example of one.

2. Commanding to abstain from foods--any kind of food. If a religious organization, or even a local church takes upon themselves to declare that to abstain from any kind of food--whether it be pork or yogurt, or whatever--it is a doctrine of demons. All food is created by God and nothing to be refused. God told Peter that in no uncertain words. "Call thou not what I have called clean--unclean!!" Do we dare transgress the command of God! Every creature of God is good. How can one go against the plain teaching of Godl, and only by their rationalistic thinking. When we go by man's thinking, and not by God's truth, that is the marking of a cult.

All pork products today are treated so that the trichonisis work is killed , even before it gets to the shelves of the grocery store.
Secondly, all pork that is cooked well has no chance of retaining the trichonisis worm. It is killed in the cooking. Lesson to be learned--don't eat raw pork, and buy from reputable grocery stores. Is that so hard to do in our society? Even so, I would rather believe God rather than the reasoning of man. Every creature of God and nothing to be refused.

Just so be their no confusion on this verse, look at another translation:

1 Timothy 4:3 forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (WEB)
--This has nothing to do with just meat, per se, but with all foods. You could insert bread, milk, cereal, coffee, or any kind of food. Any kind of food that your church commands you to abstain from is a doctrine of a demon, and is a result of a departure from the faith.
 

bound

New Member
Hi DHK,

God Bless you brother but Amy.G didn't originally post this passage. Claudia_T did.

God Bless Amy.G for keeping to the Gospel.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
bound said:
Hi DHK,

God Bless you brother but Amy.G didn't originally post this passage. Claudia_T did.

God Bless Amy.G for keeping to the Gospel.
Sorry for the mistake. Actually I assumed I was answering Claudia. It just sounded like one of her posts. I know that Amy knows better.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
well what you dont understand is that the text is talking about FASTING.... abstaining from meats (food)




Seducing Spirits and Doctrines of Demons
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats*, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
GIVING HEED TO SEDUCING SPIRITS
Deu 18:9 (KJV) When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
page 273 of Karl Keating's Catholicism and Fundamentalism, published in 1988 by Ignatius Press, he states that:
... Catholic commentators, not to mention the Popes, have agreed that Mary died; that belief has long been expressed through the liturgy. (The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did in fact die.)
Now note Catholic teaching on apparitions of Mary:
From Catholic Truth for Youth, A Catechism on the Doctrines of Catholic Faith as Made Known by the Gospels, by the Magisterium, and reaffirmed at Fatima in Our Own Time, by Father Robert J. Fox, copyright 1977, published by the Ave Maria Institute, Washington, NJ 07882, bearing the NIHIL OBSTAT and IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church:
Page 55, Lesson 6-
On May 13, 1917, the Mother of God appeared to three children at Fatima. This was the first in a series of six apparitions, each of which was preceded by a flash of light which served to alert the children of her coming.
In addition to Fatima (Portugal), other famous apparitions of Mary are claimed to have occurred at Lourdes (France), Guadalupe (Mexico), and Medjugorje (Yugoslavia). The reported sightings of Mary have been on the rise in recent years, numbering in what must be the hundreds of incidents. Some Catholic bulletin boards are full of the messages, reputed to be from Mary, given at these sightings. Catholics flock to these sites by the thousands to witness them, and perhaps be healed by Mary's blessing.
Many of these alleged Marian apparitions also speak prophetically of future events or chastisements that will occur if Catholics do not heed the warnings given. This is necromancy, attempting to consult the dead about the future, which is clearly forbidden by scripture. I do not think all these apparitions are hoaxes, and I know that it is not Mary. That leaves Satan, or one of his demons, as the only explanation for these apparitions, and Catholics very clearly are giving heed to these seducing spirits. And then on top of this, there are all the bleeding statues, stigmata, weeping icons, and on, and on.
Here is an extensive
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list of apparitions with details from the Catholics themselves.

DOCTRINES OF DEVILS
From Catholic Truth for Youth, page 67-
In front of the palm of Our Lady's right hand was a heart encircled with thorns which pierced it. We understand that this was the Immaculate Heart of Mary, outraged by the sins of humanity, and that she wanted reparation.
Page 86- Mary had only ONE Child and that Child was Jesus. Thus, she was and remains the ever-virgin Mother of Our Lord and Savior. After her Divine Son, Mary enjoys the highest place in the Church because she did God's will perfectly and never committed the slightest sin. She was even exempt from original sin, which all the other children of Adam inherit. When she died, Mary's body and soul were taken to heaven. (This is what is meant by the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.) From her beautiful throne, the Mother of God continues to love and pray for all her children still living on earth.
Page 89- When Pope Paul VI announced that a Golden Rose would be sent to the Sanctuary at Fatima, he also stated that he intended to entrust the entire human race to the care of the Mother of God.
From the booklet Questions and Answers about Mary, Page 15-
11. Why does the Church render liturgical devotion to Mary?
The Church renders liturgical devotion to Mary because Mary is joined by an inseparable bond to the saving work of her Son, which is made present in the liturgy.
The liturgy make present Christ's paschal mystery (his life, death, and resurrection), enabling us to render fitting worship to God and to obtain the graces of Christ gained for all human beings. It is only right to show liturgical devotion to Mary, since she is joined inescapably to the saving work being represented.
Though there are many other false doctrines taught by the Catholic Church, I have focused only on the Catholic doctrines regarding Mary, because the Bible speaks plainly about the the state of the dead, and says nothing about Mary being taken to heaven.
Mary remains in the grave, quite dead, hearing nothing, interceding for no one. Catholic teaching on this matter is quite foreign to scripture, and rests on nothing but Catholic Tradition. It is the most prevalent, and most dangerous form of idolatry and spiritualism to infiltrate the Church. It is plainly AntiChrist.
FORBIDDING TO MARRY
The following canons are quoted from the CODEX IURIS CANONICI, the current Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, copyright 1983, by Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Vatican City-
Can. 277 - § 1. Cleric are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, and therefore are obliged to observe celibacy, which is a special gift of God, by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and can more freely dedicate themselves to the service of God and mankind.
Can 1037 - An unmarried candidate for the permanent diaconate and a candidate for the presbyterate is not to be admitted to the order of diaconate unless in a prescribed rite he has assumed publicly before God and the Church the obligation of celibacy or professed perpetual vows in a religious institute.
Can 1087 - Persons who are in holy orders invalidly attempt marriage.
Can 1088 - Persons who are bound by a public perpetual vow of chastity in a religious institute invalidly attempt marriage.
COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS​
*Meats: From Strong's Greek Dictionary- word G1033. broma, bro'-mah; from the base of G977; food (lit. or fig.), espec. (cer.) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:--meat, victuals.
The word translated meats in 1 Tim 4:3 actually means foods in a generic sense, not just animal flesh, so this passage speaks in the broadest sense of commanding fasting.
Can. 1249 - All members of the Christian faithful in their own way are bound to do penance in virtue of divine law; in order that all may be joined in a common observance of penance, penitential days are prescribed in which the Christian faithful in a special way pray, exercise works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their responsibilities more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence according to the norm of the following canons.
Can. 1250 - All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the universal Church.
Can 1251 - Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Can 1252 - All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.

--------------------
...taken from Micahael Scheifler's site, who had given me permission to use these facts from his website: http://biblelight.net/demons.htm

My words:


2Thes:2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work

2Thes:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



 
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Claudia_T

New Member
and there, in the above post of mine you have all the characteristics of the thing, that all apply to the Roman Catholic Church,

1.giving heed to seducing spirits (spiritualism, talking to the dead)
2.abstaining from meats (fasting)
3.forbidding to marry (celibacy)

it is referring to ONE movement, which was/is the formation of the papacy...


the "mystery of iniquity" that was already at work... said the Apostle Paul...

2Thes:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Claudia,
Even if the context were fasting (which it isn't) it would still be a doctrine of demons. The church (local or otherwise) is in no position to command their members to fast or abstain from food at any time. Abstaining from food, even if it be fasting, is a personal decision between the believer and God. It falls under the category of the priesthood of the believer, and of soul liberty. But especially that of the priesthood of the believer. No church has the authority to command me, a priest before God, to abstain from any kind of food. I, a priest before God, have a relationship with God, and God alone directs me to make such decisions as to when and where, and how long to fast--not any organization. Beware of doctrines of demons.

Another question: Why are you citing the Roman Catholic Church for the defence of your position when the SDA's are so adamantly against them? The Bible is our sole authority in all matters of faith and practicel, not the RCC. What have they got to do with this subject?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Use common sense. Paul did not refer to the RCC when writing to Timothy. The RCC didn't even come into existence until the fourth century.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Hey DHK, are you messin' with my head? :laugh: I read your post and thought huh? We usually agree! Thought it was funny.:wavey:
 

Amy.G

New Member
Claudia, I'm not sure why you're quoting the RCC. I merely gave you scripture that cannot be denied. If you think I've misinterpreted it, would you please explain to me what Peter's vision was about? What was God's purpose in giving it to Him?
 

bound

New Member
Claudia_T said:
and so all of a sudden during the time the New Testament was written pork became safe to eat?

Hi Claudia_T,

It's not about it being 'unsafe', it's about it making you 'ritually unclean' in jewish culture.

I would say that you need to separate the Jewish Law from God's Law. God's Law predates Jewish Law and Jesus Christ returns us to God's Law. :thumbsup:

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.
 
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Samuel Owen

New Member
I know one thing for certian, getting involved in such conversations as this is against all a Christian should stand for. Win or loose the argument, you still have not won. People like this glory in causing you either to submit to them, and if not they have gotten you to abase yourself in Gods eyes. I for one have repented of this, and will have no more to say. The verses below say it all.

Titus 3:9-10
9: But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10: A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.
KJV
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
bound said:
Hi Claudia_T,

It's not about it being 'unsafe', it's about it making you 'ritually unclean' in jewish culture.

I would say that you need to separate the Jewish Law from God's Law. God's Law predates Jewish Law and Jesus Christ returns us to God's Law. :thumbsup:

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.

What a perfect illustration of my "good bible -vs- bad bible" post on page 1!!!
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=909169&postcount=5

In the case above - the notion of eating rats, cats, dogs and bats usualy does not appeal to Christians - but when it comes to Lev 11 suddenly there are those who feel it is to demanding of God to tell them that these pets are not lunch.

Thanks for that illustration!

in this post you refer to Lev 11 as "Jewish Law" and claim that by contrast GOD also has Law -- Law that predates "Jewish Law".

But the NT Authors tell us "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from GOD" 2Tim 3:16 -- and "NO scripture is a matter of ones OWN interpretation but Holy Men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD". 2Pet 1

So the BIBLE claims that GOD is the AUTHOR of the Word of God -- yet here we see Christians "dividing up the Word of God" between "Jewish Law and God's Law". 2Pet 1

No wonder these people who carve up the Word of God in that way would object to those who accept ALL the Word of God as it is.

In Gen 6-8 we see the unclean animals (rats, cats, dogs and bats) go into the ark by TWOs and the CLEAN animals (sheept, cows, goats, deer...) go into the ark by sevens. It is supposed by some that there was a Jew standing at the door of Noah's ark telling him which ones to call clean.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
#1. The Law of God defines what sin is - it shows mankind to be sinners. Still!

#2. The Law of God defines with the penalty for sin is - second death. It shows that all mankind need a substitute - need a Savior because we can not survive paying our debt of sin.

#3. The Law points out violation - but it does not save.

Hopefully most Christians can agree with this.

#4. The Law of God is ESTABLISHED by our Faith (Rom 3:31) and is Written on the tablets of the human heart (2Cor 3) under the New Covenant (Heb 8).

In Christ,

Bob

I saw some agreement with this post - so I thought it might be well to repost it and get us off the track of claiming that some parts of God's Word is simply authored by Jews - Jews-law vs God's Law.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
"This is why we can eat ham"???

Because Christ died for our sins and cleansed the pig????

What kind of doctrine is that!!???


Bounds
Be aware many of us here are adults...

Got it. Thanks.

The point remains - the cross is all about substitutionary atonement -- it does not change the biology of rats, cats dogs or bats.

All rhetoric aside you need to read our Lord and Saviour and the Apostle Paul to understand the 'spiritual' Law which reigns over our hearts.

It's not what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, it's what comes out of your mouth. Nothing is unclean. No food is unclean. You are confusing being cultural 'ritual' unclean with being sinful.

It would have served you better to actually quote the text and show the context. for that PRECROSS statement of Christ.

(Or were you trying to argue that PRECROSS the Jews were supposed to eat cats"??)

In this text -- Mark 7 for Mark's account of it - we see Christ and the Pharisees in a dispute about EATING WHEAT. (How you seek to slip in the rats, cats, dogs and bats topic here is amazing to me).

(Please keep in mind --you are the one bringing ham into this discussion - not me)

in the text above the Pharisees charge that "sin" gets on the hands and when we eat WHEAT (or any other such clean food) the food becomes polluted "by sin" -- it becomes unclean because sin sticking to the fingers gets on the food and then sin sticking to the food gets eaten.

long before the Cross - Christ points out that this man made tradition is pure error.

You appear to have merged the Word of God In as if Christ was denouncing the Word of God along with the man made tradition of Mark 7.

How tragic!!

Having said that - I don't refer to the points you are making as "mere rhetoric" no matter how clearly you make them.

IN Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Lev 11 forbids eating rats cats dogs and bats - then we have those who come away from the NT saying "well not any more -- ready for my puppy sandwich".
Bounds
Again, nothing is unclean regardless if it might be culturally shocking for Westerners to eat a 'puppy sandwich'.

Thank you for making that points sir. I needed to show that indeed someone on this very board would argue in favor the puppy sandwiches -- and DHK (and a few others ) that such could not be found in all of Christendom. Certainly not so local and present - as members of this very board.

My argument is that this is precisely where the anti-Lev 11 argument takes the discussion for Christians and that as bad as it may appear to Christians to "admit to it" for those in the far east this is in fact a very delicious conclusion to the discussion.

You made the case for me -- very well.

Thanks again.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quote:
How in the world does doctrine get so turned on it's head??!!

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. - Romans 14:14


-- Is a reference to meat offerred to idols as we SEE from 1Cor 8 and 10 where it is SHOWN that the conclusion is "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble" -- which is the ONLY basis and context in ALL of the NT for the Romans 14 opening argument about "eating vegetables only"!!

It is interesting that these WEAK christians NOT eating meat offerred to idols are the VERY ones doing what the Jerusalem council commanded in Acts 15 regarding meat offerred to idols!!

Yet in 1cor 8 and 1Cor 11 it is the JEWISH Christians that are said to be STRONG in faith for THEY know that idols are mere stone and the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD is the only REAL deity in the universe.

Funny what clarity Bible context will get you on these topics.

In Christ,

Bob
 

bound

New Member
BobRyan said:
What a perfect illustration of my "good bible -vs- bad bible" post on page 1!!!
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=909169&postcount=5

In the case above - the notion of eating rats, cats, dogs and bats usualy does not appeal to Christians - but when it comes to Lev 11 suddenly there are those who feel it is to demanding of God to tell them that these pets are not lunch.

Thanks for that illustration!

in this post you refer to Lev 11 as "Jewish Law" and claim that by contrast GOD also has Law -- Law that predates "Jewish Law".

It's not 'me' but Christ who points out that this observance is a commandment of man...

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. - Matthew 15:9-11

The Apostle Paul reflects on this teaching of Christ here...

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. - Romans 14:14

Your teaching completely contradict these valuable insights given to us by our Lord and Saviour and our Apostle Paul and attempts to reinstitute the observance of Mosaic Law onto the Church.

We know this is an error because of the these insights as well as the conclusions of the Council of the Apostles on this very topic...

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. - Acts 15:28-29

This is it. This is 'all' of the Law placed upon the Church, period. There is no more discussion.

Read all of Acts chapter 15 and give this some deep thought.

As I've said before. If you desire, as individuals, to exercise your own unique piety I see no overt harm but you Adventists appear to miss very key verses and passages which greatly inform us as to the liberty we share in Christ and this is a very harmful and bad thing which is warned in the Bible to avoid.

Please give this some thought. Nowhere are we yoked with anymore that seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to them, to lay upon us. No greater burden.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Have you not read the New Testament? We, as Christians are under the Covenant of Promise. Christ's Yoke is easy. Believe in Him and just like Abraham it will be given you as righteousness. Faith saves.

Good Evening.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
It is clear from Acts 10 that Peter - long after the cross was STILL not eating rats, cats dogs or bats.
Bounds said
He also wouldn't sit with the gentiles either but that didn't make it right...

That attempt at equivocation fails once again when we notice the glaring fact that in Acts 10, 11 Peter REPEATS the lesson TWO times and always points out that HE stands FIRMLY behind the Word of God in Lev 11.

He never bends on this point by saying "Finally I started chewing on a snake, then a rat, then a cat ... then a bat and WOW it was wonderful!!"

He consistently points out that the lesson IS NOT about chewing on rats BUT rather is about preaching the Gospel to ALL the World!!

Those who reduce this to "the blessed gift of puppy sandwiches no matter what God's Word says in Lev 11" are bending to the scripture beyond all limits.

having said that -- I am not the dragging this subject up on this thread.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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