Seventh-Day Adventists

[BobRyan]

Quote:Bob said
The idea that God's Laws are to be broken to show how much we enjoy the Gospel was something Paul addressed in Romans 3 "Shall we SIN that grace may abound"??
Bounds said -
Kosher Law does not establish righteousness. Again the Apostle Paul:

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. - Romans 14:14

Rom 14:1 "eating vegetables only" and Romans 14:14 reference the same issue - as does 1Cor 8 and 1Cor 11 -- "meat offerred to idols" Paul says "I will never EAT MEAT AGAIN if it causes my brother to stumble" 1Cor 8.

This has nothing to do with "Lev 11" except that they were eating real food and Lev 11 defines "what is food" - but it was food "offerred to idols" that made the point.

Also reference in Acts 15 forbidding the eating of meat offerred to idols.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:Bob said
Jesus did not say "If you Love me show it by having no regard at all for My Commandments" pre-cross and He did not say it post-cross either.
Bounds quotes -
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. - Matthew 15:9-11

Quote:Bob
There are many who "get this" -- and a striking example of such a group is the Seventh-day Baptists.

They would be teaching 'commandments of men' and not what Christ taught.

I find it totally facinating that you keep insisting that the Bible is not the Word of God -- or at least major sections are -- simply the word of man - the tradition of man.

How Christian doctrine could ever lead Christians to such a conclusion given the clear statements of Scripture to the contrary is beyond me!

2 Peter 1

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bound]

Quote:
It is interesting that these WEAK christians NOT eating meat offerred to idols are the VERY ones doing what the Jerusalem council commanded in Acts 15 regarding meat offerred to idols!!

Yet in 1cor 8 and 1Cor 11 it is the JEWISH Christians that are said to be STRONG in faith for THEY know that idols are mere stone and the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD is the only REAL deity in the universe.

Funny what clarity Bible context will get you on these topics.

Bob,

A WEAK Christian is 'anyone' who fails to stand with TRUST in the Salvation won for them through Christ and attempts to ESTABLISH that Salvation through WORKS.

I've given you the verse and you've attempted to 'narrow' it's interpretation to just meat given to Idols but you ignore the point made:

'NOTHING is UNCLEAN of ITSELF' - Apostle Paul

We make it unclean through our lack of faith. Judaizers attempt to cover over a complete lack of faith with a system which attempts to establish their righteousness.

Adventists really appear to be Judaizers. The Bible is clear about avoiding this. It is also very clear about the burden of the Law placed upon the Children of Promise (The Church).

Good Evening

 

[BobRyan]

It's not 'me' but Christ who points out that this observance is a commandment of man...

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. - Matthew 15:9-11

I suggest that yhou show the chapter in context - as IT discusses "eating WHEAT" not rats, cats dogs and bats.

WHEAT was never called "unclean" in Lev 11 - but rats cats dogs and bats were!

The jews in Matt 15 are NOT discussing rats cats dogs or bats --- or even ham... they are talking about WHEAT.

They argue that WHEAT is getting "sin" on it when eaten with unbaptized hands. They argue that there must be a ceremonial baptism of the hands PRIOR to eating food or else SIN gets IN via the sin that is sticking to your fingers.

But clearly you are equating the man made errors of the Jews with the ACTUAL text of God's Word in Lev 11 -- calling them BOTH the same thing!!!

How tragic!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We know this is an error because of the these insights as well as the conclusions of the Council of the Apostles on this very topic...

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. - Acts 15:28-29

This is it. This is 'all' of the Law placed upon the Church, period. There is no more discussion.

in Acts the command is given NOT to "eat meat offerred to idols"

In 1cor 8 and 1cor 10 Paul argues "I WILL NEVER eat meat AGAIN if it causes my brother to stumble" speaking of those who object to meat offerred to idols.

The same point is brought up again in Rom 14:1 - meat offerred to idols viewed by SOME "weak in the faith" as having some great meaning and so "they eat vegetables only".

The context is clear.

But then you go wayyyy out on a limb arguing that the gentiles were to ignore all of scripture except the few snippets given in Acts 15.

But we KNOW that they WERE to obser Lev 19:18 "Love your Neighbor as yourself" AND Deut 6:5 "Love the Lord with all your heart" just as we see in James 2 - being commanded of all.

in Eph 6:1-4 we see the Ten Commandments being referenced as a unit and the 5th commandment urged as "the FIRST commandment with a PROMISE" in that UNIT of ten. (it is not the first commandment in the OT with a promise -- obviously).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

A WEAK Christian is 'anyone' who fails to stand with TRUST in the Salvation won for them through Christ and attempts to ESTABLISH that Salvation through WORKS.

I've given you the verse and you've attempted to 'narrow' it's interpretation to just meat given to Idols but you ignore the point made:

'NOTHING is UNCLEAN of ITSELF' - Apostle Paul

your method of isolating Rom 14:14 from Rom 14:1 which speakd to the issue AND from 1cor 8 and 1Cor 10 speaking of the same issue - serves your argument well - because when taken out of context it is much more useful in terms of where you need it to go "by itself".

My argument by contrast is for exegesis and context. Rom 14 STARTS with the subject of those weak in the faith eating "vegetables only" and the ONLY place this topic is detailed for us in the NT is 1Cor 8 and 10 where Paul says "I will never eat meat again IF it causes my brother to stumble". Speaking of meat offerred to idols.

Paul is stating that the food is not UNCLEAN by being offerred to idols - but the one who thinks of that as defiling - must refrain from eating it JUST as Acts 15 appears to command of ALL Christians.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[bound]

I suggest that yhou show the chapter in context - as IT discusses "eating WHEAT" not rats, cats dogs and bats.

WHEAT was never called "unclean" in Lev 11 - but rats cats dogs and bats were!

The jews in Matt 15 are NOT discussing rats cats dogs or bats --- or even ham... they are talking about WHEAT.

They argue that WHEAT is getting "sin" on it when eaten with unbaptized hands. They argue that there must be a ceremonial baptism of the hands PRIOR to eating food or else SIN gets IN via the sin that is sticking to your fingers.

But clearly you are equating the man made errors of the Jews with the ACTUAL text of God's Word in Lev 11 -- calling them BOTH the same thing!!!

Bob,

Christ doesn't narrow his comments to 'wheat'. He very matter of a factly states:

Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Here is another translation:

"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." - Matthew 15:11 NASB

And another:

It's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." - Matthew 15:11 HCSB

We are not defiled by what we eat. These are general statements and they are not to be 'narrowly interpreted' away as you try to do so that you can institute Kosher Law.

Peter didn't institute the observance of Kosher Law nor anything else on the Children of Promise (The Church) in Chapter 15 of ACTS because it isn't necessary.

Having done my best to share with you the Saving Grace of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray that you purge yourself of these adventist errors and return to the Grace which Saves and cease to try and establish your righteousness through the Law.

May God give you grace and peace. Amen.

 

[bound]

your method of isolating Rom 14:14 from Rom 14:1 which speakd to the issue AND from 1cor 8 and 1Cor 10 speaking of the same issue - serves your argument well - because when taken out of context it is much more useful in terms of where you need it to go "by itself".

My argument by contrast is for exegesis and context. Rom 14 STARTS with the subject of those weak in the faith eating "vegetables only" and the ONLY place this topic is detailed for us in the NT is 1Cor 8 and 10 where Paul says "I will never eat meat again IF it causes my brother to stumble". Speaking of meat offerred to idols.

Paul is stating that the food is not UNCLEAN by being offerred to idols - but the one who thinks of that as defiling - must refrain from eating it JUST as Acts 15 appears to command of ALL Christians.

Bob,

I understand this is what you believe. I am simply telling you that we can be save through Faith and Truth in the work done for us on Calvary.

No Law, No Kosher diet, No Judaizing. Just Truthing in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

From that font will flow a faith working through love renewing us and bringing us closer to our Father in Heaven.

Peter didn't impose Mosaic Law on the Church. He imposed what seemed good through the Holy Spirit and that was it. I hope you eventually see that.

Peace

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 8
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble

Matthew Henry

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/1corinthians/mh/1corinthians8.htm

1Cor 8
Though they were converts to Christianity, and professed the true religion, they were not perfectly cured of the old leaven, but retained an unaccountable respect for the idols they had worshipped before. Note, Weak Christians may be ignorant, or have but a confused knowledge of the greatest and plainest truths. Such were those of the one God and one Mediator. And yet some of those who were turned form heathenism to Christianity among the Corinthians seem to have retained a veneration for their idols, utterly irreconcilable with those great principles; so that when an opportunity offered to eat things offered to idols they did not abstain, to testify their abhorrence of idolatry, nor eat with a professed contempt of the idol, by declaring they looked upon it to be nothing; and so their conscience, being weak, was defiled; that is, they contracted guilt; they ate out of respect to the idol, with an imagination that it had something divine in it, and so committed idolatry: whereas the design of the gospel was to turn men from dumb idols to the living God. They were weak in their understanding, not thoroughly apprized of the vanity of idols; and, while they ate what was sacrificed to them out of veneration for them, contracted the guilt of idolatry, and so greatly polluted themselves. This seems to be the sense of the place; though some understand it of weak Christians defiling themselves by eating what was offered to an idol with an apprehension that thereby it became unclean, and made those so in a moral sense who should eat it, every one not having a knowledge that the idol was nothing, and therefore that it could not render what was offered to it in this sense unclean. Note, We should be careful to do nothing that may occasion weak Christians to defile their consciences.

II. He tells them that mere eating and drinking had nothing in them virtuous nor criminal, nothing that could make them better nor worse, pleasing nor displeasing to God: Meat commendeth us not to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we eat not are we the worse, v. 8. It looks as if some of the Corinthians made a merit of their eating what had been offered to idols, and that in their very temples too (v. 10), because it plainly showed that they thought the idols nothing.

This is shown to apply to Romans 14

Jamieson Faussett Brown

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/jfb/romans14.htm

Romans 14
2. one believeth that he may eat all things--See Ac 10:16.
another, who is weak, eateth herbs--restricting himself probably to a vegetable diet, for fear of eating what might have been offered to idols, and so would be unclean.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I understand this is what you believe. I am simply telling you that we can be save through Faith and Truth in the work done for us on Calvary.

Now see? we agree on something!

Bound said
No Law, No Kosher diet, No Judaizing. Just Truthing in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

Trusting in Jesus means allow the New Covenant promise of the "LAW WRITTEN on the tablets of the human heart" - it means being born again -- old things passed away.

Christ said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7.

Christ then went on to point out that those who merely say they are Christians but do not show the born again life has taken place are in error.

John makes some pretty harsh statements about that in 1john 2; 4-7.

James quotes from mosaic law in james 2.

Paul quotes form mosaic law in Eph 6:1-4.

ALL NT authors refer to the OT as "scripture" as "law" and quote it as "binding".

This is beyond dispute.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[bound]

Bob,

I hope you read these commentaries and understood what they teach. Just as a Gentile can feel guilt by eating the food from idols so to can a Jew feel guilt by eating pork. It's our guilt that defiles us not any kind of kosher law.

He tells them that mere eating and drinking had nothing in them virtuous nor criminal, nothing that could make them better nor worse, pleasing nor displeasing to God: Meat commendeth us not to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we eat not are we the worse, v. 8.

This teaching applies to 'both' Jews and Gentiles and their guilt of lack-there-of with regard to eating and drinking.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. - Titus 1:13-16

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

Christ doesn't narrow his comments to 'wheat'. He very matter of a factly states:

Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Here is another translation:

"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." - Matthew 15:11 NASB

I love the way you leave the context of the chapter in Matt 15 and in Romans 14 to make your point.

The problem is that I am not allowed to do that since I need to hold to valid exegesis when quoting the text.

But I can see why you argue in favor of ignoring the context - looking at the single verse and taking it out "alone" to its furthest limit as you appear to argue that we should not limit this to wheat OR EVEN the argument of the Jews about SIN getting on your fingers when you are about to eat food. A great thing to "ignore" to make your case sir.

It works well for the point you are trying to make sir. It may in fact be the "only way" to make the case you seek to make. I grant you that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[bound]

I love the way you leave the context of the chapter in Matt 15 and in Romans 14 to make your point.

The problem is that I am not allowed to do that since I need to hold to valid exegesis when quoting the text.

But I can see why you argue in favor of ignoring the context - looking at the single verse and taking it out "alone" to its furthest limit as you appear to argue that we should not limit this to wheat OR EVEN the argument of the Jews about SIN getting on your fingers when you are about to eat food. A great thing to "ignore" to make your case sir.

It works well for the point you are trying to make sir. It may in fact be the "only way" to make the case you seek to make. I grant you that.

Bob,

Context does not limit what was said. It also doesn't limit the commentary you quoted as a one-way street. It applies to 'all' in the Church Jew or Gentile.

The Apostle Paul fought Judaizers through his entire ministry. It was easy to fall into that trap then as is now.

As a Baptist, we are very convicted to: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. - Galatians 5:1 KJVA

Explanatory Notes by John Westley: Stand fast therefore in the liberty - From the ceremonial law. Wherewith Christ hath made us - And all believers, free; and be not entangled again with the yoke of legal bondage.

Adventist intitution of the Law is strongly offensive to us. I continue to believe you are gravely disceaved in your Judaizing.

I need to retire for the evening and do some reading and pray. You will be in them.

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I hope you read these commentaries and understood what they teach. Just as a Gentile can feel guilt by eating the food from idols so to can a Jew feel guilt by eating pork. It's our guilt that defiles us not any kind of kosher law.

#1 there is no mention of pork or dogs or cats in the text.

#2. the text shows that the issue they were facing was not "failure of Christians to eat cats" rather it was the issue of gentiles "weak in the faith" who were superstitious about meat offerred to idols - thinking of it as unclean.

the commentaries point that out as the issue BOTH in Romans 14 AND in 1Cor 8!!

This completely undoes the argument you were making from Romans 14 as it shows that the point under discussion was NOT "failure of Christians to eat enough dogs and cats" but it was "meat offerred to idols" and weak Christians that would eat vegetables only rather than risk getting meat offerred to idols served to them from the market place.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

Context does not limit what was said. It also doesn't limit the commentary you quoted as a one-way street. It applies to 'all' in the Church Jew or Gentile.

You have continually argued for leaving the context of Matt 15 and Mark 7 where the dispute over eating WHEAT with unbaptized hands is mentioned -- an incident that you brought in hoping to turn it into a discussion about cats and bats.

But the context clearly does NOT show the disciples eating cats and then the jews complaining about it.. That is not the subject at all!

The Apostle Paul fought Judaizers through his entire ministry. It was easy to fall into that trap then as is now.

Yes he did fight that all his ministry.

no - that is not something we see happening today.

As a Baptist, we are very convicted to: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. - Galatians 5:1 KJVA

Explanatory Notes by John Westley: Stand fast therefore in the liberty - From the ceremonial law. Wherewith Christ hath made us - And all believers, free; and be not entangled again with the yoke of legal bondage.

Adventist intitution of the Law is strongly offensive to us. I continue to believe you are gravely disceaved in your Judaizing.

Your belief in that regard appears to be without Bible support.

But in regard to "Baptists" - it was in fact that "Seventh-day Baptists" that first introduced Adventists to the idea of honoring Christ the creator's Sabbath as "made for mankind " Mark 2:27.

I need to retire for the evening and do some reading and pray. You will be in them.

May God bring you grace and peace. Amen.

God's Blessing be upon you for doing so.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bound:
"The Apostle Paul fought Judaizers through his entire ministry. It was easy to fall into that trap then as is now.

As a Baptist, we are very convicted to: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. - Galatians 5:1 KJVA

Explanatory Notes by John Westley: Stand fast therefore in the liberty - From the ceremonial law. Wherewith Christ hath made us - And all believers, free; and be not entangled again with the yoke of legal bondage."

GE:

Now I don't care whom it comes from, and least if from Wesley. For here we have the universal blunder in approach to Paul's writings with regard to 'law' and 'Judaism'. When Paul doesn't deal with either, critics say he deals with nothing else. And Galatians is THE document from Paul wherein he the least argues about 'law' or Judaism.

Galatians the fifth chapter particularly, illustrates Pauls' concern against a marriage between Judaism - NOT the (OT) Law - heathenism (idolatry), and "fallen-back Christianity - NOT the pure Christian Faith! Here is the best example from Paul of what constitutes 'SYNCHRETISM'.

This passage has NOTHING to do with a supposed freedom to eat or not to eat 'unclean' meat. Context, Bound, it's context-bound!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bound:
"The Apostle Paul fought Judaizers through his entire ministry. It was easy to fall into that trap then as is now."

GE:
Bound:
The Apostle Paul fought PAGANISM, IDOLATRY AND HEATHENISM foremost, and corrupted Christianity second to none other, before he through his entire ministry mentioned a word against the Old Testament, its Law or its customs. It was easy to fall into the trap the wisdom of the world set for believers then. Now it has become scarcely imaginable a Christian would fall for Judaism ... who's gonna fall for Judaism today? It's all that pagan stuff that even today still threatens Christianity ... Sunday observance, virgin-worship etc. Or this pagan stuff, in the form of Judaism, yes! But never should the Gospel in Old Testament FORM, be confused for Judaism. Paul NEVER makes that mistake.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I hope you read these commentaries and understood what they teach. Just as a Gentile can feel guilt by eating the food from idols so to can a Jew feel guilt by eating pork. It's our guilt that defiles us not any kind of kosher law.

here is "the point". These commentaries are on your side in wanting to get the world to ignore God's restrictions against eating rats just as you state.

but they can not go along with you in the lengths of the contrived stories you are telling from Mark 7, Matt 15 and Romans 14. In Romans 14 even THEY admit that this is about meat offerred to idols.

In Mark 7 and Matt 15 even THEY admit that this is NOT about teaching the Jews PRECROSS to eat rats and cats -- it is about the man-made-tradition of INVENTING stories about sin sticking to your hands and then getting onto the FOOD - (Wheat in this case) that you eat - and thus you getting "sin inside you" via this superstitious non-biblical method.

NEVER do these commentaries go to your lengths of story telling - claiming that God's Word -- Lev 11 is "Man made tradition to be ignored".

My argument is that your story telling is soooo extreme - so contrived, so outside the realm of exegesis that EVEN commentaries that SHARE your view of the rats - can not go along with you in the areas where you have chosen to invent a case for your view!

And THAT sir is "instructive" for the reader.

I also note that in Act 10 we do NOT see Peter saying "LORD LORD I am so used to eating beef steaK AND MUTTON AND VEAL THAT I just can't eat rats and cats no matter how hard I try - please forgive me just this once as I am not able to pick up that rat and eat it".

RATHER Peter says "OH NO Lord for I HAVE NEVER eaten RATS" -- nor will he ever do it -- in accordance to your word in Lev 11. THEN Peter tells us THREE TIMES that the lessons "CALL NO MAN unclean" -- not ONCE does he add "AND by the way eat less beef steak and more rats to show that you accept Gentiles".

Not once!!

And yet there are today Christians such as yourself that will argue this point of "eat less beef steak and more rats" simply because you feel it is too restrictive on your freedom to submit to God's Word in Lev 11 about not eating rats and cats!

Astounding sir - absolutely astounding!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[bound]

GE:

Now I don't care whom it comes from, and least if from Wesley. For here we have the universal blunder in approach to Paul's writings with regard to 'law' and 'Judaism'. When Paul doesn't deal with either, critics say he deals with nothing else. And Galatians is THE document from Paul wherein he the least argues about 'law' or Judaism.

Hi GE,

I'd have to disagree with you here.

Galatians the fifth chapter particularly, illustrates Pauls' concern against a marriage between Judaism - NOT the (OT) Law - heathenism (idolatry), and "fallen-back Christianity - NOT the pure Christian Faith! Here is the best example from Paul of what constitutes 'SYNCHRETISM'.

Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul on many points Sublates Mosaic Law. 'Sublates' (i.e. fulfills) Mosaic Law (reveals it's spiritual meaning). The Law as practiced by the Jews (in it's literal and limited sense) does not fulfill God's Commandment to Love Man as yourself. Love is beyond any legalistic attempt to codify. When we limit our love of God and Man to the legalism of Mosaic Law we become rigorist just like the Pharisees.

Repeatedly did the Apostle Paul exhort the Christians of his day as well as us in ours to keep clear of this error.

This passage has NOTHING to do with a supposed freedom to eat or not to eat 'unclean' meat. Context, Bound, it's context-bound!

It speaks of a larger 'liberty in Christ' which we have inherited through grace.

Context is absolutely important but you would have us chain Scripture to speak of nothing 'today'. The Bible speaks to us yesterday, today and tomorrow. It is not a historical document, it is a Living Document.

I'm wondering if you all observe the precepts concerning other thing besides kosher observance? Are women who are menstruating not allowed in your church for worship? Are they 'unclean'? Do you stone adulterers, etc? Come now!

When you realize that Christ Himself sublated the observances (hating enemies to loving them, killing to even angry thoughts, acts of adultery to lustful thoughts, ritual uncleanliness to spiritual uncleanliness, etc) He revealed the spiritual significance of the mundane observances and fulfills their original intent.

Christ brought man into a relationship with God, up close and personal. You appear to be hanging your entire relationship on the misunderstood observance of Mosaic Law, just as the Jews had done. You ignore the Day of Resurrection, the very day of the entry of our Salvation for the 'shadow' of the day of rest. God choose to return on the third day (Sunday) as the sign of His Covenant of Promise. You desire us to ignore that and continue as if Christ had never come?

Mosaic Law was the tutor not the master. It was the steward not the King. We who stand as inheritors of the Kingdom no longer need a tutor or steward except the Spirit and Truth revealed through the coming of Christ Jesus. You would have us ignore the Spirit and Truth for the Law as if it had never come to illuminate mankind.

You cite Scripture and verses which you then argue demands that we be Jews in every way as if the Messiah had never came. The coming of the Messiah was revolutionary and beyond anything that the Jews or the Law prepared them for. To be a rigorist only blinds us to this spirit and truth. Remember, the letter of the law kills but the spirit of the law heals.

My guess is that Adventists will eventually merge into the new Messianic Jewish groups coming about and you will have squandered all the grace offered you through our Lord and Saviour to return to the mundane observance of the Law.

Christians have been given more that just a continuance of Jewish Culture we've been given a personal saviour and a new relationship with God Almighty in the new and everlasting Covenant of the Children of Promise. You have given up the Promise by picking up the Law as a means to establish your own salvation through works.

We celebrate Christ's birth, death and resurrection as the only begotten Son of God. All of creation surrounds this nexus between Heaven and Earth, God made Flesh for the renewal of God's relationship with his wayward creatures. The old observance has been revealed in the coming of our Lord and Savior and happy are we to sit at His Table.

Your tradition appears to have missed a great deal of the Good News.

That is a real shame but I can tell that you are all apologists for Adventism and I don't might debating with you but I feel strongly that until you enter into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ you are going to be grasping at the old observances to establish you righteousness which will merit you nothing when you stand before His Judgement Seat.

Learn about the Gospel (i.e. the Good News) and enter into a salvific relationship with our Lord and Saviour and the law will be fulfilled through your spiritual observance which is the spirit and truth revealed by our Saviour Jesus Christ.

May God Bless you and bring you into His Grace and Peace. Amen.

 

[Claudia_T]

bound,

you said "My guess is that Adventists will eventually merge into the new Messianic Jewish groups coming about and you will have squandered all the grace offered you through our Lord and Saviour to return to the mundane observance of the Law."


You just have no idea what you are talking about. Couldnt be further from the truth.

You completely miss the point of things... entirely.


Go read this and maybe you will get it finally... read it like 10 times or so and notice the language used by Jesus about the Law, okay? SERIOUSLY.

Luke 10:
25: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29: But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30: And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31: And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32: And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33: But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34: And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35: And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36: Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37: And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.



THEN after reading it, what you need to realize is that Jesus was telling them what was ALWAYS in the Law, they just had been missing the entire point of the Law, get it?

I color coded the thing and underlined it so that maybe you could finally get this idea.

It isnt as if all the way up till then the God of the Old Testament had wished for people to leave their neighbors lying on the side of the road to die!

REMEMBER? Jesus said, "When you have seen Me you have seen THE FATHER"

That was the work of Jesus, not only to die in our place but to RESTORE the Law to its rightful place and to cause the people to get out of the darkness they had been in to see God as He really was all along.


Read this one like 10 times as well and THINK:

Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with SDAs supposedly not accepting the grace of God, you just could not be further from the truth.


Claudia