Seventh Day Adventists

[BobRyan]

NEITHER passage supports the "truth" though of a real Christian losing eternal life, as Jesus promised that NONE he saved would ever get lost again!

Why does the SDA believe that their prophetess was right on this, and jesus was wrong?

Let's make this easy for you so you don't have to blame every Bible text that debunks Calvinism -- on Ellen White.

[FONT=&quot]OSAS does not survive Ezek 18:20-26

OSAS does not survive Matt 18:32-35

OSAS does not survive Gal 5:4.

OSAS does not survive John 15:1-12

OSAS does not survive 1Cor 6:5-12

OSAS does not survive Romans 11:13-23.

OSAS does not survive Hebrew 6:4-6

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[BobRyan]

Matt 18

[FONT=&quot][26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

We should readily see that this is about the spiritual necessity of moral reciprocity as expressed in the golden rule, or the two greatest commandments, if you prefer.
It does not correlate allegoricaly with soteriology in that his request for mercy was only for patience in his paying the debt himself, not total debt forgiveness by vicarious payment.[/FONT]
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In the text total payment is made even though the petitioner does not anticipate it by his request. The grace and mercy in the King far exceeds the request being made. It is the Love, mercy and compassion of the King that results in full and complete payment.

1. The King says "I forgave you ALL that debt".
2. The servant is only expected to forgive others - out of response to first having been fully forgiven himself.
3. Christ then applies the same point to his followers as though they too are expected to forgive others - just as they have first been fully forgiven by His Father.
4. Then comes the OSAS-impossible - Christ argues that his own followers would experience the same "forgiveness revoked" as is demonstrated/illustrated in the story if they in the same way do not forgive others just as they were first - fully forgiven by God.


[FONT=&quot]Same t[FONT=&quot]eaching principle in Matt 6

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Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot];OSAS does not survive Ezek 18:20-26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

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[FONT=&quot]
In Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins it shall die" - and in Ezek 18:21 when the wicked turns from his wicked course of action to righteousness - to "doing that which is lawful and righ" then "he shall not die" he shall live.

This is describing salvation - clearly the one doing right - used to be wicked doing that which is wicked - so "living" in this case means going to have under the gospel model of forgiveness for "sins that are passed" as Peter said.

It is pretty clear that a wicked man could never get the reward of eternal life by simply doing something good -- all without the gospel... all without forgiveness.

Once we accept the Gospel in action in Ezek 18:21 where the wicked man does not die - but rather turns to righteouness (only possible via the Gospel according to Rom 8:5-9)

Do have the right context for the case of the righteous man that "turns" to evil.

God who is the Author of the Gospel - knows whereof he speaks here.

The next case deals with the righteous man that turns from his ways.

By contrast to the wicked man that turns from his wickedness - and lives as a result.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.



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We know that the righteousness of Ezek is not that of Christ because in vs 21-23 - the wicked man (not Christ) turns from his wickedness and does righteousness - and lives.

The "doing of righteousness" in Ezek 18 is not the "Sinless flawless life of Christ" measure as we can see in vs 21-23 because it is done by one who was wicked.


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[BobRyan]

Gal 5
[FONT=&quot]4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[/FONT]

John 15
[FONT=&quot]2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.[/FONT]

 

[Yeshua1]

Gal 5
[FONT=&quot]4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[/FONT]

John 15
[FONT=&quot]2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.[/FONT]

Paul states that they are falling from Grace back unto the law, if they desire to keep the law as SDA demands...

NOT stating there that they would lose salvation, but that they would be denying to them the grace of the Holy Spirit in order to continue to grow in Christ...

And many see that the Father will be pruning those who have no works in order to get them to be able to do good works, NOT that He will be losing any of them them!

 

[Yeshua1]

[FONT=&quot];OSAS does not survive Ezek 18:20-26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
In Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins it shall die" - and in Ezek 18:21 when the wicked turns from his wicked course of action to righteousness - to "doing that which is lawful and righ" then "he shall not die" he shall live.

This is describing salvation - clearly the one doing right - used to be wicked doing that which is wicked - so "living" in this case means going to have under the gospel model of forgiveness for "sins that are passed" as Peter said.

It is pretty clear that a wicked man could never get the reward of eternal life by simply doing something good -- all without the gospel... all without forgiveness.

Once we accept the Gospel in action in Ezek 18:21 where the wicked man does not die - but rather turns to righteouness (only possible via the Gospel according to Rom 8:5-9)

Do have the right context for the case of the righteous man that "turns" to evil.

God who is the Author of the Gospel - knows whereof he speaks here.

The next case deals with the righteous man that turns from his ways.

By contrast to the wicked man that turns from his wickedness - and lives as a result.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.



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[FONT=&quot]
We know that the righteousness of Ezek is not that of Christ because in vs 21-23 - the wicked man (not Christ) turns from his wickedness and does righteousness - and lives.

The "doing of righteousness" in Ezek 18 is not the "Sinless flawless life of Christ" measure as we can see in vs 21-23 because it is done by one who was wicked.


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Ezeckiel was talking about those who continue in sinning shall be judged and punished for their evil deeds in this life, this passage says NOTHING about either salvation, or losing/keeping it!