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Seventhday believers, on Baptism
- Thread starter Tazman
- Start date
If you know what baptism means- that it is a public profession of your faith in Jesus Christ, that you wish to die with HIm on the cross(Justification), and walk as a new creature in Christ, being filled with His Holy Spirit(Sanctification), and you choose not to, this would be a major problem.
If however you are ignorant of this truth, or for some reason beyond your ability, are not able to be baptised but want to, then God will not hold this against you.
I cannot speak for the SDA church officially, only give my own convictions regarding the matter according to the knowledge of the scriptures which God has granted to me.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
If however you are ignorant of this truth, or for some reason beyond your ability, are not able to be baptised but want to, then God will not hold this against you.
I cannot speak for the SDA church officially, only give my own convictions regarding the matter according to the knowledge of the scriptures which God has granted to me.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
You can speak for God but not for the SDA's?
The SDA church has a list of "must do's" to be saved plus a list of "exceptions to their rules". "Their" rules as opposed to God's way
...which is Faith Alone in Jesus Christ
Now brother BobRyan is SDA but he claims water baptism is not required. Maybe he will give his take on it.
God Bless!
You can speak for God but not for the SDA's?
The SDA church has a list of "must do's" to be saved plus a list of "exceptions to their rules". "Their" rules as opposed to God's way
...which is Faith Alone in Jesus Christ
Now brother BobRyan is SDA but he claims water baptism is not required. Maybe he will give his take on it.
God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Are sure about Bob?
true SDAs believe that you cant be saved if you are in rebellion against God and want to live in disobedience.
If God commands us to be baptise then yes we need to do just what He tells us to do. Basically this is because He is God and we are not.
It is a false Christian who claims to love God but then demonstrates his hatred for God by refusing to do what He says.
If circumstances make it impossible to baptised God expects us to do what we are able. The theif on the cross could do nothing.
Claudia
If God commands us to be baptise then yes we need to do just what He tells us to do. Basically this is because He is God and we are not.
It is a false Christian who claims to love God but then demonstrates his hatred for God by refusing to do what He says.
If circumstances make it impossible to baptised God expects us to do what we are able. The theif on the cross could do nothing.
Claudia
in other words, Jesus said, "Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and ye do not what I say?"
steaver, I would ask you the same thing, why do you claim to believe in Jesus but do not feel it a necessity to do what He says?
Jesus said, Go ye into all the world and make disciples, baptising them, teaching them to do whatsoever I commanded them.
claudia
steaver, I would ask you the same thing, why do you claim to believe in Jesus but do not feel it a necessity to do what He says?
Jesus said, Go ye into all the world and make disciples, baptising them, teaching them to do whatsoever I commanded them.
claudia
From the SDA Spirit of Prophecy writings: (this pretty well sums it up)
Baptism Requisite in Conversion.--Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. Letter 174, 1909. {Ev 306.3}
The Christian's Oath of Allegiance.--As Christians submit to the solemn rite of baptism, He registers the vow that they make to be true to Him. This vow is their oath of allegiance. They are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus they are united with the three great powers of heaven. They pledge themselves to renounce the world and to observe the laws of the kingdom of God. Henceforth they are to walk in newness of life. No longer are they to follow the traditions of men. No longer are they to follow dishonest methods. They are to obey the statutes of the kingdom of heaven. They are to seek God's honor. If they will be true to their vow, they will be furnished with grace and power that will enable them to fulfill all righteousness. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.--Letter 129, 1903. {Ev 307.3}
A Worthless Form Apart From Christ.--It is the grace of Christ that gives life to the soul. Apart from Christ, baptism, like any other service, is a worthless form. "He that believeth not the Son shall not see life."--The Desire of Ages, p. 181. (1898) {Ev 318.3}
Conversion, Not Just Baptism.--Salvation is not to be baptized, not to have our names upon the church books, not to preach the truth. But it is a living union with Jesus Christ to be renewed in heart, doing the works of Christ in faith and labor of love, in patience, meekness, and hope. Every soul united to Christ will be a living missionary to all around him. --Letter 55, 1886. {Ev 319.1}
Baptism Requisite in Conversion.--Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. Letter 174, 1909. {Ev 306.3}
The Christian's Oath of Allegiance.--As Christians submit to the solemn rite of baptism, He registers the vow that they make to be true to Him. This vow is their oath of allegiance. They are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus they are united with the three great powers of heaven. They pledge themselves to renounce the world and to observe the laws of the kingdom of God. Henceforth they are to walk in newness of life. No longer are they to follow the traditions of men. No longer are they to follow dishonest methods. They are to obey the statutes of the kingdom of heaven. They are to seek God's honor. If they will be true to their vow, they will be furnished with grace and power that will enable them to fulfill all righteousness. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.--Letter 129, 1903. {Ev 307.3}
A Worthless Form Apart From Christ.--It is the grace of Christ that gives life to the soul. Apart from Christ, baptism, like any other service, is a worthless form. "He that believeth not the Son shall not see life."--The Desire of Ages, p. 181. (1898) {Ev 318.3}
Conversion, Not Just Baptism.--Salvation is not to be baptized, not to have our names upon the church books, not to preach the truth. But it is a living union with Jesus Christ to be renewed in heart, doing the works of Christ in faith and labor of love, in patience, meekness, and hope. Every soul united to Christ will be a living missionary to all around him. --Letter 55, 1886. {Ev 319.1}
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
SDAs believe that in Romans 10 the sequence for salvation is clear - you hear you believe and you are saved.
SDAs believe that in 1Peter 3 - the issue of Baptism is clear - "NOT the touching of magic water to the skin - but the APPEAL TO GOD for a clean conscience". Those who place their faith in the magical sacramental waters of Baptism are going down an unbiblical road.
(Though Steaver seems to choke on these "SDA" ideas - they remain pretty much unchallenged on this thread. How cool is that?!!)
SDAs believe that in 1Peter 3 - the issue of Baptism is clear - "NOT the touching of magic water to the skin - but the APPEAL TO GOD for a clean conscience". Those who place their faith in the magical sacramental waters of Baptism are going down an unbiblical road.
(Though Steaver seems to choke on these "SDA" ideas - they remain pretty much unchallenged on this thread. How cool is that?!!)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So, is baptism required and active in salvation according to the SDA? </font>[/QUOTE]The SDA belief is that if a person accepts Christ as Savior - they are saved.
If they accept Christ and then have the priviledge of following Him in full water Baptism - they will of course choose to do so.
But if circumstances prevent that from taking place immediately - they are "still saved".
IF their faith is merely a matter of convenience such that they seek only a "convenient" Jesus that will not "ask so much of them" then they were not saved to start with.
Jesus sais "I AM the way the TRUTH and the Life" in John 14. To reject a love of the Truth is to reject the love of Christ.
The SDA church does not teach "Baptismal regeneration" - which means they do not believe that the "New Birth" is withheld from the Christian until the moment their head dips under the water. Such ideas of magical sacramental waters - do not originate with scripture and are not taught by Adventists.
Why do some find that so surprising?
In Christ,
Bob
I would Disagree with that statement. Jesus never reduces His baptism to a "getting" wet party. Don't tell me you consider it to be a "Work" like "Stever" does, do you?
Even so, Jesus tells us to be born again of water and the Spirit. Peter understood this and so did the other apostles.
What is your take on Mark 16 & Matthew 28:18-20?
Why do you think baptism is optional?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The practice of baptism for forgiveness of sins started precross. Even Christ's disciples were baptizing. What great thing to live in those days and be Baptized by the disciples of Christ as He conducted the overall ceremony or directed in some way.
#1. The theif on the cross did not get off the cross and get baptized.
#2. To follow in obedience can ONLY be the response of a born-again saved heart. The wicked heart steeped in rebellion will not choose to study repent accept Christ and then follow on in Baptism.
#3. Peter states that it is NOT the issue of "water touching flesh" that saves when we speak of "Baptism now saves you" but rather it is the "APPEAL TO GOD for a good conscience". So Peter EXPLICITLY addresses the issue of "Baptism SAVES" and shows that the external sacramental act (the mere work of following in baptism) is not what SAVES!
#4. In Acts 10 we SEE those who are NOT baptized, born again, accepted by God AND FILLED with the Gift of the Spirit!!
#5. Romans 10 points to this same sequence showing that in belief in and confession we see the result "salvation".
I don't think Baptism is "optional" any more than attending church, witnessing for Christ, paying tithe, keeping Sabbath, loving your neighbor, loving God, are "optional".
They are all "requireed" of the saint. But to BE a saint you must yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit repent, accept Christ and be born again! In that forgiven and saved state - you then publically enter into Baptism!
In Matt 28 Christ says that the Disciples were to teach others ALL that Christ taught them. In the book of Matthew we see a document written years later - doing that every thing! And the teaching of Christ as recorded there is primarily pre-cross teaching. If that teaching was that nobody is saved in the Gospel until they are first baptized - then Christ could never have said to ALL those who he spoke to pre-cross "your sins are forgiven". Rather He would have to have said "go get baptized and your sins will be forgiven".
Furthermore - if the only way to be forgiven of sin is to be baptized then even post-baptism the message in 1Johh 1:9 would be "If we confess our sins and are baptized then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" in 1John 2 "if anyone does sin - then get baptized because we have an Advocate who will forgive us each time we are baptized".
Baptism is a graphic symbol of sins washed away at the entrance into salvation - as is the foot washing service is as a repeated reminder for the rest of our saved lives. But we do not wait until those public moments to get forgiveness!!
In Christ,
Bob
#1. The theif on the cross did not get off the cross and get baptized.
#2. To follow in obedience can ONLY be the response of a born-again saved heart. The wicked heart steeped in rebellion will not choose to study repent accept Christ and then follow on in Baptism.
#3. Peter states that it is NOT the issue of "water touching flesh" that saves when we speak of "Baptism now saves you" but rather it is the "APPEAL TO GOD for a good conscience". So Peter EXPLICITLY addresses the issue of "Baptism SAVES" and shows that the external sacramental act (the mere work of following in baptism) is not what SAVES!
#4. In Acts 10 we SEE those who are NOT baptized, born again, accepted by God AND FILLED with the Gift of the Spirit!!
#5. Romans 10 points to this same sequence showing that in belief in and confession we see the result "salvation".
I don't think Baptism is "optional" any more than attending church, witnessing for Christ, paying tithe, keeping Sabbath, loving your neighbor, loving God, are "optional".
They are all "requireed" of the saint. But to BE a saint you must yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit repent, accept Christ and be born again! In that forgiven and saved state - you then publically enter into Baptism!
In Matt 28 Christ says that the Disciples were to teach others ALL that Christ taught them. In the book of Matthew we see a document written years later - doing that every thing! And the teaching of Christ as recorded there is primarily pre-cross teaching. If that teaching was that nobody is saved in the Gospel until they are first baptized - then Christ could never have said to ALL those who he spoke to pre-cross "your sins are forgiven". Rather He would have to have said "go get baptized and your sins will be forgiven".
Furthermore - if the only way to be forgiven of sin is to be baptized then even post-baptism the message in 1Johh 1:9 would be "If we confess our sins and are baptized then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" in 1John 2 "if anyone does sin - then get baptized because we have an Advocate who will forgive us each time we are baptized".
Baptism is a graphic symbol of sins washed away at the entrance into salvation - as is the foot washing service is as a repeated reminder for the rest of our saved lives. But we do not wait until those public moments to get forgiveness!!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As to the quotes Claudia gave - I do not see the as being in conflict with the SDA position that rejects Baptismal regeneration.
As for the fact that Steaver and I probably agree on the fact that Baptism is an outward sign and not an "inward" change or a sacrament with the power to forgive sins, or make one born again -- I just have to say that "yes it is true" Steaver and I do not "disagree on everything".
I guess that probably comes as a shock based on the way I have been dogging his trail on the subject of OSAS. (I just like to talk about that subject.)
But back to Claudia's post
I don't see this as teaching baptismal regeneration - rather it teaches that the "Christian" the "regenerated" will choose to follow in obedience - including Baptism.
It it is the unforgiven, wicked rebellious heart that must first choose baptism and THEN be forgiven of sin - it would never happen.
As for the fact that Steaver and I probably agree on the fact that Baptism is an outward sign and not an "inward" change or a sacrament with the power to forgive sins, or make one born again -- I just have to say that "yes it is true" Steaver and I do not "disagree on everything".
I guess that probably comes as a shock based on the way I have been dogging his trail on the subject of OSAS. (I just like to talk about that subject.)
But back to Claudia's post
So here we see that the Christian - born again, saved and forgiven is to walk in obedience - newness of life no longer enslaved to rebellion against Christ. One of the first acts in obedience is entering into the waters of Baptism - making that public statement identifying ourselves with Christ and in fact with the family of the Trinity - the people of God.
I don't see this as teaching baptismal regeneration - rather it teaches that the "Christian" the "regenerated" will choose to follow in obedience - including Baptism.
It it is the unforgiven, wicked rebellious heart that must first choose baptism and THEN be forgiven of sin - it would never happen.