Seventy Weeks Prophecy, no Gap, but a Solid Promise

[DHK]

hmmmm. Complete silence after these last three posts. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[asterisktom]

hmmmm. Complete silence after these last three posts. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Oh please. Don't give yourselves too much credit. I am now swamped with teaching new classes. Today, my heaviest day, I am teaching for eleven hours. I just don't have the energy or time to write here.

Do you not have a job, or outside activities that call you away from posting here? If not, others do.

Not all silence is "complete silence" or "running away". It just seems that way to those whose main arena of life has a keyboard in front of it.

Will write more when I have time.

 

[beameup]

I'm still waiting to hear about what happened in AD 40, at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel....

 

[OldRegular]

The most obvious gap in scripture is between the first and second coming of Christ. The Old Testament often speaks of both comings in the same text as though no gap occurs between them when it obviously does even if you make the second coming the silly idea that it occurred in A.D. 70. there is a gap of nearly 40 years.

I believe your argument is self defeating. There are obviously two streams of prophecy regarding the coming of Jesus Christ: The first as the Suffering Servant was fulfilled 2000 years ago. The second as the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS yet to be fulfilled. There is no way the prophecy of the two comings of Jesus Christ can legitimately be used to defend the so-called gap in Daniel's seventh week.

 

[OldRegular]

In Matt ch 24-25 and Luke ch 21, Jesus talks about the end of the age, the Glorious Second coming and the fate of the Temple. What he doesn't do is tie the fate of the temple to the Second Coming. It is difficult for some here to grasp what I'm saying but there is simply no connecting the two time wise.

Preterism has several huge problems to explain, one is why did it take almost 20 centuries to discover that the event had already taken place? Another major problem in my mind is why did the NT writers give us so much detail with respect to the actual signs and situation on earth at the time of the second advent when the plan all along would be that the event would be basically unknown by the theologians and historians for many centuries?

Reformed theology in general and preterist in particular like to prove their point by trying to discredit Darby or Scofield or whoever. What they do not seem to get is that their concept of the Kingdom promised by Christ, their "spiritual kingdom" now present in the church, comes from the pens of the Roman church.

It is ironic to me at least that the reformers took the actual words of the Bible over the teachings of Rome with the exception of prophecy. Everything is literal and systematized with this one exception.

When judgement came in the days of Noah, there were signs and warnings and then a spectacular event. When judgement comes at the second advent, we should expect the same. That aspect is lost when it is claimed that we are now in the kingdom. One of the purposes of the second advent is to execute judgement and glorify Christ. It will be an awful time for many people in divers places but they will know what is going on, it will not be hidden. Ask the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus.

For me it comes down to trusting the words of the Bible or the words of the theologians. Problem with the theologians is that they are not inspired, at least I don't believe they are. Others may disagree, as is their right. But if anyone were to pick up their modern (or not so modern) translation of the Bible and actually read it and take to heart the words, they would never conclude that we are post second coming and that believers in Christ are now living in a spiritual kingdom that was promised to the sons of Abraham.

The reformed have had more than 400 years to demonstrate to the rest of us that the Bible teaches a covenant of redemption. I would think that after 400 years and no results it is time to rethink the doctrine or consider giving up the claim of sola scripture.

Was Darby inspired? Some on this Forum think so!

 

[DHK]

Was Darby inspired? Some on this Forum think so!

That was uncalled for. It simply shows one's inability to give an intelligent answer to the post he is responding to.

 

[asterisktom]

OK, what happened in 40 A.D. to complete the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy?
Most of the New Testament was not complete by 40 A.D., so where is the "chapter and verse" concerning this most important prophecy?

Actually, none of the New Testament was written by 40 AD, but I am not sure what you want "chapter and verse" on. Perhaps you are looking for explicit mention of the 70 Weeks Prophecy, in which case you would be disappointed. See my other comments.

And concerning the date of 40 AD; how did you arrive at that? I figured the end of the period would be 37 - 38. At any rate, the conversion of Cornelius would fit rather nicely. I won't be dogmatic on this but that event seems to be a major turning point for the Jews. It is also greatly emphasized in the Bible. In Peter's vision of the sheets the unclean animals were offered three times. Also the whole Cornelius incident is given to us three times. Clearly this is intentional emphasis.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by
Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) Mt 24:15
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand, ) Mk 13:14

This happened in 70 AD with the Roman standards within the Temple area. I don't see the problem here.

 

[beameup]

The "abomination of desolation" concerns the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week.
So, since none of the N.T. epistles were written by 40AD, then this major
prophetic event would have been recorded by the H.S. in the Epistles.

It is not.

 

[asterisktom]

More on the Seventy Weeks Prophecy

For the record - again, not being too dogmatic on the exact dates (may be off by a year or so) - this is my understanding of the 70 weeks timeline, keeping the divisions in mind:

1. The first division was 458-457 BC to c.409 BC.
2. The second division was 409 BC to 30 AD.
3. The final division was 30 to 37 AD.

Note: I mistakenly used the wrong date on a recent thread here. I no longer believe that 454 BC is correct.

Over the years I have switched a year or two back and forth as my studies led me to further considerations, but I am sure of the general outline above. Each of the divisions have Scripturally significant events associated with them:

458-457 BC Artaxerxes Longimanus gives permission to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

Around 409 BC is the end of the first period and the end of Old Testament inspiration Malachi). This begins the silent years.

30 AD is the beginning of Christ's public ministry.
37 AD is marked, I believe, by Cornelius's conversion.

Now, obviously, between 37 and 70 there is a great deal of time. But this is not a gap, but an extension in time, God mercifully waiting for the full number of His elect from the Jewish nation to come to the fold (2 Peter 3).

An extension is not a gap. It is, by definition, a continuation of the status quo for a definite purpose. A gap, by contrast, is a period of markedly different characteristics - exactly what futurists have in their thousands of years stretching of the word "soon".

There are a few examples in the Bible of extensions of God's mercy, where the axe does not quite fall when first threatened. One is the people of Nineveh. Jonah's warning to them was that they would be destroyed in 40 days. But they repented. They had an extension of mercy. The doom, however, overtook the following generation of Ninevites.

The parable of the fruit tree is another example. It was not cut down until the gardener had tried further to coax fruitfulness out of it.

However, from the time of Jesus' ministry the age was already dawning. I tcertainly had arrived in the time of Acts. At this point we had two ages at the same time, the one fading away, the other dawning ever brighter. IMO Paul refers to this time when he said that "upon them" had "come the ends of the ages".

The Seventy Weeks - in their entirety - have long since been over. The early church writers knew this, wrote of this.

 

[asterisktom]

The "abomination of desolation" concerns the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week.
So, since none of the N.T. epistles were written by 40AD, then this major
prophetic event would have been recorded by the H.S. in the Epistles.

It is not.

The abomination of desolation happened outside of the 70 Weeks. See my other comments in the previous post.

 

[beameup]

Wouldn't it be more "logical" to assume that the Church has not "replaced" Israel, and that Israel will be given a "second chance" in the Tribulation?
The doctrine of the Body of Christ was only revealed to Paul (apostle to the Gentiles) after the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit at Stephen's testimony
and the subsequent stoning of Stephen.

The "Tribulation" being for the purification of the remnant of Israel, to then serve the Messiah, from Jerusalem, during the Millennium.

 

[Yeshua1]

The abomination of desolation happened outside of the 70 Weeks. See my other comments in the previous post.

Still yet to happen!

 

[beameup]

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt 24:15
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt 24:21

The Abomination of Desolation is yet future, during the Great Tribulation when Satan's Antichrist presents himself as God.

 

[asterisktom]

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt 24:15
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt 24:21

The Abomination of Desolation is yet future, during the Great Tribulation when Satan's Antichrist presents himself as God.

Look up the biblical usage of the word "abomination". For there to be a place of abomination it has to first be holy (in this case, the holiest). That is no longer possible. Now, as Jesus told the Samaritan woman, there are no longer holy places. It is spiritual worship.

The tribulation being the worst ever refers to the Jews. And, yes, what happened in 70 AD was the worst disaster that ever befell them. They lost their city, nation, temple, their very means of worship. How can anything be worse than that?

 

[beameup]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [departure] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God



THE TIMPLE PROBPER CAN BE BUILT IN 3 DAYSL

 

[DHK]

Look up the biblical usage of the word "abomination". For there to be a place of abomination it has to first be holy (in this case, the holiest). That is no longer possible. Now, as Jesus told the Samaritan woman, there are no longer holy places. It is spiritual worship.

The tribulation being the worst ever refers to the Jews. And, yes, what happened in 70 AD was the worst disaster that ever befell them. They lost their city, nation, temple, their very means of worship. How can anything be worse than that?

The holocaust was worse than that. An entire nation almost wiped out by a senseless dictator, and in such a horrible manner.
As with the holocaust there will come a time far worse then even that or the destruction of the Temple. It is called The Tribulation. You should acquaint yourself with its events in a more literal way.

 

[asterisktom]

The holocaust was worse than that. An entire nation almost wiped out by a senseless dictator, and in such a horrible manner.
As with the holocaust there will come a time far worse then even that or the destruction of the Temple. It is called The Tribulation. You should acquaint yourself with its events in a more literal way.

I know all about the whole scenario. I was a futurist for over thirty years, a pretribber for about half that time. When I became a Christian in the 70s I read lots of Hal Lindsey and others. But the whole foundation of that mythic interpetation comes from a faulty reading of the Bible and an underestimate of just what the Jews lost in the first century.

The scale of suffering of Jews is not just a matter of body count, but in the absolute desolation of no longer being God's people as a nation.

 

[kyredneck]

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Matt 24:15

Yes, let beameup read Luke's account and understand:

But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. Lu 21:20-23

Sometime late in the year 66 A.D., Cestius Gallus, [Roman] Governor of Syria and Commander of Roman forces, marched his army into Judea in an attempt to quell the revolts. Read Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book II, Chapter 19; excerpts:

“But now Cestius, observing that the disturbances that were begun among the Jews afforded him a proper opportunity to attack them, took his whole army along with him, and put the Jews to flight, and pursued them to Jerusalem. He then pitched his camp upon the elevation called Scopus, [or watch-tower,] which was distant seven furlongs from the city; yet did not he assault them in three days' time, out of expectation that those within might perhaps yield a little;..........when Cestius was come into the city, he set the part called Bezetha, which is called Cenopolis, [or the new city,] on fire; as he did also to the timber market; after which he came into the upper city, and pitched his camp over against the royal palace; and had he but at this very time attempted to get within the walls by force, he had won the city presently, and the war had been put an end to at once;.... a great number of the officers of the horse, had been corrupted by Florus, and diverted him from that his attempt; and that was the occasion that this war lasted so very long, and thereby the Jews were involved in such incurable calamities....... had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day.....he recalled his soldiers from the place,..... without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world.”

Note by translator of the history, William Whiston:

"There may be another very important and very providential reason assigned for this strange and foolish retreat of Cestius, which, if Josephus had been at the time of writing his history a Christian, he might probably have taken notice of also; and that is the opportunity afforded the Jewish Christians in the city, of calling to mind the prediction and caution given them by Christ that 'when they should see the abomination of desolation' (the idolatrous Roman armies, with the images of their idols in their ensigns) ready to lay Jerusalem desolate, 'stand where it ought not,' or 'in the holy place'; or 'when they should see Jerusalem encompassed with armies,' they should then 'flee to the mountains.' By complying with which, those Jewish Christians fled to the mountains of Perea, and escaped this destruction. Nor was there perhaps any one instance of a more unpolitic, but more providential conduct, than this retreat of Cestius visible during this whole siege of Jerusalem, which (siege) was providentially such a 'great tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the world to that time; no, nor ever should be'.”

John Gill, on Matthew 24:16:

"...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . "

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt 24:21

20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

18 And pray ye that it be not in the winter.
19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

The Abomination of Desolation is yet future, during the Great Tribulation when Satan's Antichrist presents himself as God.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

That just doesn't sink in to you, does it?

 

[PreachTony]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [departure] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God



THE TIMPLE PROBPER CAN BE BUILT IN 3 DAYSL

I'm assuming your last line there, beameup, should actually read "The Temple Proper can be built in 3 days." If that is indeed the case, please answer these questions (or direct me to wherever they may have previously been answered:

1. Will the rebuilt Temple also inhabit the Temple Mount in Jerusalem?

2. If the answer to #1 was YES, then what makes you think Islam will willingly give up their holiest sites, the Dome of the Rock, to allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple?

 

[beameup]

I'm assuming your last line there, beameup, should actually read "The Temple Proper can be built in 3 days." If that is indeed the case, please answer these questions (or direct me to wherever they may have previously been answered:

1. Will the rebuilt Temple also inhabit the Temple Mount in Jerusalem?

2. If the answer to #1 was YES, then what makes you think Islam will willingly give up their holiest sites, the Dome of the Rock, to allow the Jews to rebuild their Temple?

Answer: the future literal fulfillment of Psalm 83. Arabs have already suffered defeat and shame in previous wars against Israel.
The next one will bring total humiliation and shame to "Allah" and his followers, and will have global ramifications.