"...shalt surely die."

You BET I DO!!!!!
Just as much as you believe that belief has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation :smilewinkgrin:

That is fine, but I'm not going to make something up just because I don't understand the scriptures concerning it to better fit what I want either.

 

Merry Christmas brother. I pray your new church start is going well. Satan is attacking us from every direction he can. Pray for us.

 

Merry Christmas to you as well brother.
We will CONTINUE to pray for yours brother.
We are having another family move away. It is a good thing though because the husband was just hired as personal security for "In Touch Ministries" with Charles Stanley. But that is the third family to move away which made up almost the whole group . They were the ones praying for 5 years to have a church like this one come in but once God used them to get us there through prayer, and He has now lead them elsewhere. So it isn't so much the church that needs prayer but me though the body of Christ ALWAYS needs prayer.

I have been preaching for the church I am up here strenthening as well and have hit them like a sledge hammer with God's holiness and their need as a church to repent for their slothfulness (yes, the pastor knew what I was going to preach and agreed it was a needed message). But ... who knows.

All I can say is ... Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

 

Tis a shame - we live in a day that ministers have to have personal security. raying:

Thank the liberals for destroying America! (a free opinion)

 

Dear Skypair,
Read what I wrote again.

Are all believers saved? Check scripture.

Are all non-believers unsaved? Check scripture

bro. Dallas

 

'was' is past tense on both counts. Innocent infants are present tense.

We are born with a carnal mind because of Adam's fall, therefore we are born at enmity with God. We sin even when we try to perform righteousness while in that particular condition.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

conscience to know the most basic moral values and truths

Where this is true, it is also clear that many a man has never been moved by this conscience. This maybe hard for us to relate with being we know the law of God. However each of us have met others that live in sin with no clue. No guilt is found in them. No thought of God. NOTHING.

Maybe you have not...but I have met many like this. I have met them out of the nation as well. They worship a god, but have not a clue about the God of the Bible. So based on your idea that one must know of sin before the guilt is placed on them, would mean we need to keep the laws of God away from the non-believer, thereby never passing on the guilt of sin.In other words, going by your idea, if you tell others that a sin is wrong and they reject what you have to say, you have just helped them place them under the guilt of sin. Where as if you had said nothing, the guilt would not be there.

I of course do not believe such things.

 

If you do not believe it then you would appear to deny scripture which states just that:

It matters not whether any man 'has been moved by their conscience' but the fact is the conscience has already born witness and they rejected it. The law already in and of their own heart condemns them.

Their guilt is established by the rejection of the truth both witnessed by nature and their conscience. The fact it didn't move any and or moved a few or many is irrelevent for it is and has done that which God has declared. It is a testimony for or against them with regard to the truth revealed.

 

I don't agree.
The 'when' doesn't reflect any change in what I have contended.
The scripture states (in my own words), when the Gentiles (non-believers) who does not have and therefore know the Law of God specifically, and yet or STILL does BY NATURE those basic things contained in the Law, those who do not have the literal law ARE a law to themselves.

This law will be used to judge them according to the next verse. But why?
It is because of those things inherently known by the conscience among all men due to their current nature. This nature (the sin natue) is fallen or corrupt but it is not the wooden literal meaning of word dead, and therefore we are not still-born. That is why in knowing the dim reflection of truth, they not only acknowledge it but willfully reject it and that conscience will be used to judge them. It is why those things which are in and all around us in nature can be seen and understood even by them as the Lord reveals it even to those who do not believe and because of that sin nature which is not a wood literal meaning, there is STILL a dim aspect of their nature which confirms the good set forth in the Law even if THEY don't know it. They know what good is because they know good vai their NATURE which God created it in man. Their nature is still at emnity with God, and seperated becuase it is corrupt and fallen but it still remembers that from which it fell.

Those who do good without having the Law reveals a commonly acknowledged goodness or a standard of basic goodness known to all whether Jew or Gentile, and establishes the Truth or True Goodness which is found expressly in Gods own written Law.

No one has said such.

So far so good, ...

So tell me James
Just were did their conscience come up with the 'ideas' which reflect the Law of God in men born spiritually seperated from God, if God did not put it there?

Where does this inherent knowledge of basic goodness come from that makes them a law unto themselves, James?

Of course they are driven by their 'ideas' of right and wrong, but God gave them both physical nature and their own conscience to show them and lead them toward the truth IF they will accept it. But like in Rom 1:18 till the end of the chapter, they change that which they KNOW, corrupt it, and make it into their own truth rather than believe the truth that was revealed to them, et., et, et...

If I'm not making any real sense, I'm sorry I'm just a tired but I tried - I might come back later tonight (as I will be at work) and try to help out where I lost you. Which will be from the very first word in the post, huh? :laugh:

BTW James - Have a blessed Christmas. I pray you will be blessed in the Lord our God who has redeemed us.

 

BTW - What do you think it means when it states the non-believers 'do by nature' the things contained in the law, or those good things regarding the Law?

I'm curious.

 

This is not the 1st time.

well....you are coming ago here.

This would seem to be a problem for none Calvinist, and if anything it would seem we have changed sides on this one issue. I'll give you this much Allan, I am the one that must back my statement. I'm going against most writers on this. However it is something to think about...if you will.

You asked how does this come about?

That is fair to ask...but again I must say, the text itself does not tell us. You have to agree with that part. However there is a key that helps give understanding. It goes back to the word "when". When you consider the meaning, there places not only a condition on the event. If there is a condition, there must be a time when the condition is not in place. I think the passage clearly states when this takes place and what "the law" is in this case. It is said by most writers..Calvinist and non-calvinist alike that this is talking about the law of God on mans heart. The passge does not say this unless as you state...where did it come from? Then one could conclude on there own it came from God.

Unless we go just by the text and then we see another picture.

Thanks Allan, and the same blessing go out to you and your family.