Sheep and Goats

[Mel Miller]

Hope of Glory,

I wish to support your approach to the subject of "works" as addressed by Jesus
in Matt.7:21 and Matt.25:35,40,45.
Quote:
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But, to see that he's referring to the Kingdom, you simply have to remember that this is still part of the sermon on the Mount. He's speaking to disciples; he's speaking to those who are already saved, and giving them instructions for living. (First of all, spiritual salvation is not of works, and if it were, why would he be giving those instructions to those who are already saved?)
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Even DPT places Matt.7:21 in the context of a "future judgment day"!

I think Jesus had the final judgment day in mind at the end of the Millennium!!
DPT fails here since he is a professed A-Millennialist. But the principle by which Jesus will judge the Goat Nations is clearly "works-based"!!

Neither Hope of Glory nor DPT is questioning the means of salvation during this age of grace. We all need to realize that the Kingdom of Heaven to be "inherited
by the sheep nations", while it begins with those who are "left of the nations that will come against Jerusalem", will not be without "sin and death" during the Millennium!

Christ must "reign until all enemies are placed under His feet and then He will become subject to the Father in all things". I Cor.15:24-28.

When Jesus "separates the sheep from the goat nations" the sheep will "inherit
the kingdom on earth foerever". That will not occur UNTIL the last enemy has
been destroyed which occurs by casting "death and Hades into the Lake of Fire".

Those who "inherit the kingdom of heaven on the New Earth" will have earned
the right to the Tree of Life. Those who do not have that right, based on their failure to "keep God's commandments", will be cast into Hell AT THE SAME TIME the Sheep inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of
the world. Their names will be in the Lamb's Book of Life; but they will not
inhabit the New Jerusalem. Rev.21:27; Rev.22:2,14; Matt.25:322-34.

Only the "Lamb's Bride will inhabit the Holy City that comes down upon/over the New Earth"! Rev.21:2,9. The "saved nations" (KJV) will enter the New Jerusalem at any time to continue being "healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life because they will have "earned the right to do so by keeping God's commandments"! Rev.22:2,14. KJV.

This is one prime example why this Group endorses the KJV above others!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Hope of Glory]

Last things first:

This is one prime example why this Group endorses the KJV above others!

This is such a non sequiter to this discussion that it's almost absurd! Why bring up this overbeaten argument in this discussion?

Hope of Glory,

Even DPT places Matt.7:21 in the context of a "future judgment day"!

Of course it has to do with a future judgment day, but he's talking to his disciples and warning them. What's he warning them about? Is he warning them that if they don't do these good works then they are unsaved? That's a works based salvation!

No! It's talking about inheriting the Kingdom. It states such, but many people simply can't accept that.

This reminds me of a church that I was interviewed to pastor. They wanted to know if I would be willing to teach the false doctrine that you could lose your salvation.

I explained simply that that is not what the Bible teaches, so I would not teach it.

They informed me that although they agreed with me, it is much easier to keep the natives in check when they're afraid to misbehave.

That's the attitude that people get when you try to apply passages such as Matthew 7 to your everlasting salvation. They misinterpret the passage and think that it has to do with whether or not you are saved, when everyone it is addressing is saved!

 

[Mel Miller]

Hope of Glory,

Quote:
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Of course it (Matt.7:21) has to do with a future judgment day, but he's talking to his disciples and warning them. This (subject of a works' based salvation) is such a non sequiter to this discussion that it's almost absurd! Why bring up this overbeaten argument in this discussion?
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I disagree that Jesus is warning the disciples that any of them might not "enter the kingdom of heaven". I quoted only Matt.7:21 and Matt.25:35,40,45 as depicting those who will not enter the kingdom at the final judgment! The disciples will sit on thrones and reign with Christ over the 12 tribes of Israel during the Millennium!

I indicated the time in question is the final judgment at the end of the Millennium.
That judgment will be based totally on "works" and will apply to the "goat nations that fail to keep the commandments of God" during the Millennium.

I brought up this "overbeaten" subject because the principles Jesus laid down for entering the kingdom of heaven apply to the Millennial Age during which "all men will know the Lord, from the least to the greatest". Their salvation, however, will depend on whether they keep God's commandments AND the KJV stands out in warning against those who fail to keep God's commandments during the Millennium.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, it perturbs me greatly that you misquote me terribly. My comment about the non sequiter argument was about the KJV. You have twisted it by blending it with another part to make it seem as if I'm saying something else. I hope that no one else is tricked by this. I really don't understand why you would do this.

Now, on to the subject at hand. How can you think that this judgment has to do with the end of the Kingdom? It's the Sermon on the Mount. The entire thing has to do with the Kingdom.

Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This is talking to saved people! Why is that so difficult to understand? Only saved people have the option of entering the Kingdom.

All saved people (and only saved people) will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The goats and the sheep in Matthew 25 are told to "inherit the Kingdom". Inheritance is a family matter. The Kingdom can only be inherited by those who are spiritually saved, but not everyone who is spiritually saved will have an inheritance. Saved? Yes. But, not enjoying the allotment in the Kingdom that they could have had.

 

[npetreley]

npetreley,

I know where Christ's quote as what you recently shown to me. He saying, 'Without me, ye can do nothing.' this is find in John 15:5.

Understand, the context of John 15:1-8 talking about our fruits. At the first place, if a person do not have Christ(salvation), then person's works are worthless. A person have to accept Christ, then Christ shall abide in a person to process and carry fruit. John 15:6-8 telling us, we are commanded to be abide in Christ and to carry fruit, or if we do not abide in Christ, and do not carry fruits, then shall be cut off cast into fire. That means, we must be endure in Christ all the way to the end then shall be saved (Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13), OR, if we do not endure for Christ by the time we die, then we shall not be saved, cast into everlasting fire.

Now, please can you care to explain John 5:29- "they that HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life"? What this is talking about?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Essentially, it's talking about those who bore good fruit (did good works by HIS workmanship, for it is God who works in us to will and to do according to HIS good pleasure).

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[pituophis]

Some on this thread seem to think that the only ones who heard the Sermon on the Mount where saved people. Notice at the beginning in ch.5. Jesus saw the crowds...His disciples where with Him, but so where the "crowds." This is shown at the end of ch.7 in v.28 "the crowds were amazed at His teaching..." and in 8:1 "When he came down...large crowds followed him..." (NIV)

Hope of Glory...let me ask you another question, please. I have heard of pastors (or other Christians) who have preached that Christ is the only way. He is God. He is the Messiah. That He is Lord. And then turn around and deny the faith. Walk away from Christ. Walk away from the pastorate and embrace "all religions" or "become" an atheist. My question to you is: Did he lose his salvation? Your answer may be like most of us...he never was saved to begin with. He was calling Jesus Lord, however, he was lost [a lost sheep that WILL be found one day, or a goat that God passed over].

Jesus said in John 2:23-25 "...many people...believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men...for he knew what was in a man." (NIV)

 

[Mel Miller]

Hope of Glory,

Quotes:
________________________________________________________________
My comment about the non sequiter argument was about the KJV.
How can you think that this judgment has to do with the end of the Kingdom?
The Kingdom can only be inherited by those who are spiritually saved, but not everyone who is spiritually saved will have an inheritance.
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I'm sorry, but you did not identify to me the subject of your "non sequiter". I have
only recently joined and should not be expected to know what has been discussed.

You fail to distinguish between the "warnings" of Christ's sermon and the final
"judgment" at which time many will be excluded from the Kingdom. You also fail to distinguish between the "judgment seat" for the Body of Christ and the "judgment"
that will "separate the nations" at the end of the Millennium.

You are decidedly mistaken about assuming those who "inherit the kingdom on earth" applies to the Bride of the Lamb. We will "inhabit the New Jerusalem"
forever while the "saved nations will walk in the light of the New Jerusalem and
yet will enter therein from earth at any time to be healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life"! Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14; KJV. The "blessings" of Rev.19:9 and Rev.22:14 are for the "saved nations" and NOT for the Bride of Christ during the Millennium OR throughout eternity.

If I may, I also would like to question what you mean by assuming we may be spiritually saved but not also enjoy our spiritual inheritance. Because I don't
think Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount makes any distinction between being saved and being rewarded. He rather is talking about those who do OR do not inherit the Kingdom which begins on earth at His return!!

All Believers inherit the Kingdom of God the moment they believe and will
be rewarded at the Second Coming. But our inheritance is fixed and eternal!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[J. Jump]

But our inheritance is fixed and eternal!!

Our inheritance is certainly not fixed upon believing. Our eternal destiny is fixed upon believing, but that is different than our inheritance. I don't know that we can dogmatically say that it is eternal either, because we have purposefully not been given a lot of details about eternity, becuase that is not to be our focus.

It seems as though you are equating inheritance with life and that's not what the inheritance is. Eternal life is fixed upon believing, but that is something different that ruling as part of the bride of Christ in the 1,000-year kingdom.

Also the Bible does not support the idea that all believers will become the bride. It is quite the opposite. Only a portion of the body makes up the bride. You can see this in both the OT and NT.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I'm sorry, but you did not identify to me the subject of your "non sequiter".

That's why I quoted the relevant part to which I was responding.

Now, as to the rest, J. Jump covered it fairly well and succinctly.

Any time you try to apply the warnings and exhortations in such a way that it affects our spiritual salvation, then you are teaching a works based salvation.

The warnings and exhortations given in the Sermon on the Mount are to saved individuals.

My question to you is: Did he lose his salvation? Your answer may be like most of us...he never was saved to begin with.

I would never give that answer, as it is unscriptural and is found nowhere in the Bible. It is only found in the teachings of men who are trying to "justify" passages that seem to contradict themselves. (Such as warnings that seem to say you can lose your salvation, even though the Bible clearly teaches OSAS.)

You may believe on the Lord Jesus as your savior, then walk away. Does that mean that you become unsaved? Not at all. Our salvation does not depend upon our works. Once you accept the Lord Jesus as your savior, you're in the family! You cannot be unborn any more than an earthly baby can become unborn.

Everything from that point on is a family matter. It affects your inheritance. (And, you can be written out of the will, but you're still family.)

If you try to equate inheritance or reward with spiritual salvation, you will find many conundrums in the Bible. When you delineate them, then many things become much more clear.

 

[Mel Miller]

Hope of Glory and J Jump,

Quote:
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If you try to equate inheritance or reward with spiritual salvation, you will find many conundrums in the Bible. When you delineate them, then many things become much more clear.
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That, my friend, is exactly why I am insisting that the warning of Matt.7:21 has nothing to do with "rewards" to Christians. It concerns any who depend on
a works-based salvation during this present dispensation of Grace without works.

And during the Millennium, works must still demonstrate the genuineness of one's
keeping the commandments of God, not for salvation, but to show they have "the right to the Tree of Life" by the leaves of which the Nations of earth will continue to be "healed". Ezek.47:12; Rev.22:2,14; KJV.

You two seem to equate inheritance with rewards instead of inheritance with our
eternal union with Christ. "We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ" without
any qualification with respect to rewards. To even suggest that "not all believers
(during the OT and NT dispensations) belong to the Bride of Christ" smacks of "works-based" salvation. All that we inherit in Christ is totally a gift of God's grace.

I know of no scripture that equates rewards with our inheritance.

I feel that Hope of Glory, not I, "tries to apply the warnings and exhortations in such a way that it affects our spiritual salvation". Warnings are for Unbelievers. Our eternal salvation IS our inheritance as "joint-heirs with Christ"!!

I also know of no scripture that "seem to say we can lose our salvation"!!

J Jump, I strongly reject your view that "Our inheritance is certainly not fixed upon believing". Actually, our inheritance as well as our eternal position in Christ was fixed before the world's foundation!

So I cannot agree that the warning of Matt.7:21 (like the judgment of Matt.25:35,40,45) in the Sermon on the Mount is to "saved individuals".

Once again, the statement in the Sermon on the Mount that some will "not enter
the Kingdom" deals with the denial of salvation to Unbelievers, NOT with rewards to Believers. Blessings to Believers do include rewards; but that's not the point of
Matt.7:21 nor Matt.25:34-46. We need to give glory to God for His great and wonderful purpose to "show mercy to all who beg for mercy" when Christ returns. Rom.11:30-33.
raise:
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Hope of Glory]

Once again, the statement in the Sermon on the Mount that some will "not enter
the Kingdom" deals with the denial of salvation to Unbelievers, NOT with rewards to Believers.

The passage states explicitly in many places that it is in reference to the Kingdom.

If you equate the Kingdom with spiritual salvation, then you are denying the teaching of over 200 verses in the Bible, and 8 verses in the Sermon on the Mount.

The fact that they are calling him "Lord" tells us that they are saved.

(Mat 5:3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 5:10) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 5:20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

(Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

(Mat 6:33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[J. Jump]

J Jump, I strongly reject your view that "Our inheritance is certainly not fixed upon believing".

Our inheritance has everything to do with believing just not in the way that you are portraying it. You are equating inheritance with eternal salvation and that is just not possible.

When we are saved by grace through faith, at that very moment, we receive eternal life. That is not an inheritance. An inheritance is something that you wait for. We don't have to wait for salvation it is already ours at the moment we believe.

Now granted you must continue to have faith and believe in the next message of good news in order to get that inheritance, but again it is not the believing that you are equating it with.

 

[Mel Miller]

Hope of Glory,

Quote:
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If you equate the Kingdom with spiritual salvation, then you are denying the teaching of over 200 verses in the Bible, and 8 verses in the Sermon on the Mount.
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You do not yet allow the difference between the Body/Bride of Christ and the
Kingdom over which we will rule on earth for 1000 years. Jesus never equated
the Bride of the Lamb with those God will allow to enter the Kingdom on earth because they mourn and "beg to escape His wrath and prevail to stand before the Son of Man". Luke 21:34-36.

Christ appears with ALL the Saints. Therefore, those who are "kept alive"
of every "Twosome" where one is "taken and fed to the birds", millions will
enter the Kingdom at the start of the Millennium. Luke 17:30-37.

But Jesus is talking about those who will be denied "entrance" into the Kingdom
at the End of the Millennium when He "separates the sheep from the goats". All
who are "kept alive" at Christ's coming will automatically belong to the "sheep
nations". There will be no separation of "goat nations" until they have failed to
"treat the least of Jesus' brethren as they (outwardly) treated Him. Matt.25:31-46.

It has generally been assumed that Christ "separates the sheep and goats" at
the start of the Millennium. He will "sit on His throne" for 1000 years until
there are enough sheep vs. goat nations to fulfill the need to "separate sheep
and goats". All unbelievers at the Second Coming, who refuse to repent, are
automatically destined for Hell. There will be no goat nations to "separate"
from the sheep until their number becomes as "countless as the sand of the sea". Rev.20:8. That will occur 1000 years after Christ assumes His throne.

:thumbsup:

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

J Jump,

You will note that I always give scripture to support what I believe. I find none for your remark that follows:
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When we are saved by grace through faith, at that very moment, we receive eternal life. That is not an inheritance.
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All who are "heirs of God are joint-heirs with Christ". And the Mystery is that "Gentiles are fellow heirs" with O.T. saints in the same Body because of the Cross.

Therefore, the "warning" of Matt.7:21, I repeat again and again, does not apply to those whose inheritance is eternal; nor to the question of our salvation. It applies
solely to unbelievers who falsely think they should also inherit the Kingdom when
Christ comes to "sit on His throne" until it is time to "separate the sheep from the goats"! Matt.25:31-32.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Hope of Glory]

Mel, here's the verse in question:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

They call him "Lord". They are saved.

It's talking about entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavens. They are saved.

Only saved people can call him "Lord", and only saved people even have the opportunity to enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens. The Kingdom of the Heavens is nothing more than the rule of the heavens over the Earth.

Before moving on elsewhere, why not deal with these two points?

 

[2BHizown]

saved sheep?

NO, they are not saved! He just said that not every one that saith to me shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of my Father!
He said also that He would say to them "I never knew you!"
He doesnt say 'I dont know you' but NEVER, clearly telling us they had never been saved but had been professors, never posessors!

 

[J. Jump]

So 2BHizown are we eternally saved by our works? Because this passage says that those that DO (work) the will of my Father are the ones that will enter the kingdom.

No. Eternal salvation is by grace through faith and that not of works lest any should boast.

So contextually we can see this is not about the saved/unsaved, because it has to do with works eliminating eternal salvation.

 

[2BHizown]

wresting the scriptures!

Of course we are saved by grace!
That very fact is evidenced by our works. The works dont save but are proof positive that we are His!
If one truly loves Him then he loves the brethren, cares for the needy and demonstrates his love by obedience to the Lord of his life!
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves who you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness! Romans 6:16

 

[J. Jump]

If we are saved by grace, and that is what the Bible says, then works play NO part in salvation whatsoever, nor does it prove you are saved, because works are not a guarantee of a saved life.

Works should be evidence of a saved life, but it is not a guarantee.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves who you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness! Romans 6:16

This is obviously not speaking of eternal salvation, because our obedience is not what determines whether we are saved or not.

 

[Mel Miller]

Hope of Glory wrote:

Mel, here's the verse in question:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

They call him "Lord". They are saved.

It's talking about entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavens. They are saved.

Only saved people can call him "Lord", and only saved people even have the opportunity to enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens.

Before moving on elsewhere, why not deal with these two points?

_____________________________________________________________

My friend, I do indeed agree with your 2 points. I disagree with your conclusion about those to whom the Lord will say "depart" when they say: "Lord, Lord"!

At the start of our discussion, in #113, I answered your question relative to when the saved and unsaved will be judged at the same time, i.e., when Jesus separates the sheep from the goat nations after He "sits on His throne for 1000 years".

In #132 you admitted Matt.7:21 is about "entering into the kingdom of heaven and not into salvation". So far, so good. In #142 I supported you that entrance into the Kingdom is spoken of as works-based, i.e., those that "keep God's commandments". Rev.22:14; KJV. (That's why I "brought up" the KJV issue). By your not accepting that the KJV gives this inheritance only to the nations may be why you keep distinguishing between "salvation and inheritance" for those who are saved NOW. Only the sheep nations will have the "right to the leaves of the Tree of Life" at the end of the Millennium! The inheritance in this case has no reference to our eternal inheritance in the New Jerusalem.

Is this difference what causes you to distinguish between salvation and inheritance?

In #142 you admit Matt.7:21 conerns the "future judgment day". You even admit it's about "inheriting the Kingdom"! We agree Matt 7 is "not talking about salvation or about whether or not one is saved" NOW as you stated. That's why, in #143, I disagree that Jesus is "talking about saved persons who might NOT inherit the Kingdom" because of their works NOW; but only at the End of the Millennium of the unsaved who THINK they might inherit the Kingdom THEN.

For that is when Jesus will banish only the Goat Nations from entering the Kingdom because they will have failed to keep God's commandments. The sheep do inherit the Kingdom. Matt.25:32-43! So Matt.7:21 is NOT a warning to
those who are saved!!

Then, suddenly in #144, you *SWITCH* your view on Matt.7:21 as a "future
judgment" by asking "how it can refer to a future judgment"! The time for inheriting the Kingdom is after the Millennium and so your view that our lack of works as believers may result in the possible loss of our "inheritance" is most disturbing!!

You have no basis for claiming "goats and sheep in Matt.25 are told to inherit the Kingdom and that not every one who is spiritually saved will have an inheritance".
All the sheep will inherit the Kingdom.

In #147, I asked what you mean by "spiritual salvation that may not include inheritance in the Kingdom" after you had admitted in #142 that it does include
inheritance in the Kingdom! But in #149 you say we can be "written out of the
inheritance"! You are making "inheritance" a *reward* instead of a certainty!!

So far, as of #151, you have only restated that the Kingdom must not be equated with spiritual salvation. I agree to this but not that we may be "written out of our inheritance"! In #152, J. Jump claims eternal life is "not an inheritance that we wait for". He needs to read I Peter 1:4:

"God has begotten us unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an INHERITANCE incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you and me. And we are KEPT by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION ready to be revealed in the last time"!!

Hebrews 1:14 states that "the angels minister to us who are being about (mellontas; present active participle) to inherit salvation"! Believe it and bow in praise before our God. :thumbsup:

Mel Miller www.lastday.net