Shifting the Blame

[Yeshua1]

Hi QF, what is nice about fiction?

Did God impose the consequence of the Fall? Yes. Was part of that "you will surely die?" Yes. Therefore if being spiritually dead, separated from God also means (the Calvinist fiction) fallen men have no ability to seek God and trust in Christ, then they are "prevented" from obtaining mercy.

This argument, about 400 years old, that God can predestine folks to damnation but not be responsible is irrational fiction.

So being condemned "already" means they were condemned as a consequence of the Fall, and that consequence was imposed by God.

Next, rather than address the obvious truth, a sly implication of bias and distortion is made. Utter fiction, with no evidence.

What was demonstrated is Calvinists use fictional strawman arguments. Well Duh. The fictional implication, something in the OP was biased. But the innuendo if fiction.

Calvinism is splitting the body of Christ, and one of the chief weapons is the utterly false claim, "well the non-Cals are just as bad as the Cals." Two wrongs do not make a right, and do not deserve a thumb's up.

calvinists NOT splitting up the Body of Christ, its the Chrsitians from BOTH camps that are walking in the Flesh, not the Spirit!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not sure if this is a shuck and jive comment, but i think you are somewhat correct.

I think we have had too much easy believism preached. People begin to react against that. I don't agree with Calvinism, but i do think it can help restore a proper balance to presenting the Gospel.

I don't think the answer is "Come to Calvinism" (that's not meant as a slam) but to come back to a Biblical balance of making disciples. I know you believe that the Biblical balance is calvinism. I don't, but I appreciate how that Calvinism has been used by God to make us re-examine what the Bible says about salvation.

We ahve "easy Grace" and "Jesus is Lord of all/or Lord of nothing" think truth is in the Middle!

 

[saturneptune]

A long time ago, about 400 years, great Biblical thinkers like John Calvin pondered the question of why some folks accept the gospel and some folks reject the gospel. Some said the reason is the message was not well presented. Others said no it can't be our fault; it must be God's fault.

John Calvin and others hit upon an idea. The folks that accept the gospel are the ones God individually chose before the foundation of the world and they were predestined to salvation, while the others not chosen were prevented by God from accepting the gospel. Having a working hypothesis, they manufactured support for the doctrine and attempted to address the many paradoxes the doctrine creates. God wants all men to come to salvation - nope, God wants all [kinds] of men to come to salvation. Over the years the reformed theology was developed. And over the years a sizeable group of folks rejected the manufactured support.

In parallel with this development process, Jacob Arminius, an objector developed his alternate view, desperately trying to put faith back into the equation. The Calvinist's had taken it out, and then attempted to address the scriptural weakness by manufacturing the gift of faith and asserting regeneration before belief.

Now four hundred years or so later, here we sit pridefully asserting Calvinism is either true or false and presenting a range of opposing views including those of Jacob Arminius.

Some believe the dark ages, as characterized by Religion being ensconced in government, was brought on by Augustine, who misinterpreted the parable of the feast (Luke 14:16-24). Augustine’s erroneous idea was that compel them (verse 23) meant use force to bring about God’s will and thus the foundation was laid for government compulsion enforcing the decrees of church leaders. Luther and other leaders of the Reformation realized folks should have religious freedom from the corrupted traditions of the Church and its leaders, and thus the foundation for church-state separation was laid.

I have said many times that Calvinism is not only a mistaken doctrine; it is an obviously mistaken doctrine. Despite numerous verses indicating total depravity is a mistaken doctrine, folks say no they mean the exact opposite of what they say. Nobody can find the narrow door unless God regenerates them supernaturally. Nobody can seek God even though Jesus said to seek the kingdom of God. God wants only the elect to be saved even though scripture says God wants all men to be saved. Salvation or damnation has nothing to do with trusting in Christ or being a sinner, God decreed before mankind fell who would be saved and who would be damned and then just brings about His predestined will. In other words, the exact opposite of what scripture says.

I believe the Church is still partly bogged down in the dark age of Calvinism, with folks implying flawed evangelism is worse than no evangelism, or worse yet (Hypers), God will save the elect in China, no need to send missionaries there! How does Calvinism hinder evangelism: two ways, it undercuts persistence (all I need do is present the gospel and God will do the rest) and it sidetracks believers (they spend much time debating the paradoxes of Calvinism and bashing opponents.)

So Van, why do you think God is obligated to impart 100% understanding of His ways to you personally for the doctrine to be correct?

 

[convicted1]

God does not prevent anyone from receiving the gospel, as you stated. God does enable some to receive the gospel or none would receive it. Calvinism, if you want to call it that put's God on the throne as a ruler and a king. Arminius put's God down below the level of man and makes a begger out of God and makes man sovereign. The doctrines of sovereign grace exalts God and abases man. Just because the bible say's for man to repent doesn't mean that man has the ability to repent. God commandeth all men everywhere to repent, not begging them to repent. Free will thinking has God waiting on man, free grace thinking reveals to man he has nothing to offer God but is at Gods mercy for salvation. A sovereign God over all things is the God I will serve, not a god that has no power but what man gives him. Either God is God or he is not.

Romans 10:16-21

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


His hands were stretched forth to Israel and they apparently wouldn't come.

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually, the calvinist thinking is that God elects some to salvation and leaves the others to enjoy their natural fallen state. That God is under no obligation to offer salvation to anyone, but shows mercy to whom He will. (my own statement of the typical calvinist)

The quote you cited would place God as responsible for sending folks to hell.

That is in violation of John 3 - "...are condemned already..." not will be condemned, not might be condemned, not have the alternative to be condemned or not, but "are condemned already."

Folks, below is a bit on bias that I trust will help all to do some introspection and construct certain internal mechanism(s) that there be no deceitful distortion overtake the believer.

The bias point of view obliges one to grasp at any extreme and assign it in general to all who have that view, further the evil of the bias is compounded by publishing the untruth.

Such is also the case of bias from the other extremist (for instance the bias of the extreme cal toward the non-cal). The bias will demand that,the non-cal cannot faithfully hold to OSAS and eternal punishment for the lost. The bias demands that if Christ truly died for all, then all are saved and that includes all evil satanic forces and the arch evil - Satan, too. The bias will distort the persception seeking evidence in certain modernist teachers and preachers who actually do hold to this herecy and then the bias will be applied generally and compounding the evil by publishing the untruth.

Of course, extremes are never accurate, and are used only with the intent of providing fodder for the over zealous and to ridicule anyone who might hold a view not in agreement.

Bias comes from a lack of maturity, political expediency, desire for popularity, narcissism (expressed as everyone is wrong but me, all views are wrong except my view, and obliges blind loyalty to me of all who are in "my camp"), one sided education, trauma of some personal experience, and the list could go on.

Rarely is the bias God glorifying, and hardly is there any actual edification that is provided because bias refuses to express balance and draw the audience into agreement. Rather, bias generally being self centered and self serving ultimately only compels toward a cult-like following in which the members will rarely if ever challenge the bias nor the propagator of that bias.

Bias abounds in the human nature, and the believer must be ever vigilant to guard their mind.

Scriptures that compel the believer to walk humbly and demand of their conversation a love of the brethren help in this endeavor.

Van, these are the points that ageman made that I found salient.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Not sure if this is a shuck and jive comment, but i think you are somewhat correct.

I think we have had too much easy believism preached. People begin to react against that. I don't agree with Calvinism, but i do think it can help restore a proper balance to presenting the Gospel.

I don't think the answer is "Come to Calvinism" (that's not meant as a slam) but to come back to a Biblical balance of making disciples. I know you believe that the Biblical balance is calvinism. I don't, but I appreciate how that Calvinism has been used by God to make us re-examine what the Bible says about salvation.

I'm not sure the answer is "come to Calvinism", either. Coming "close" to it would be good enough for me.:laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

So Van, why do you think God is obligated to impart 100% understanding of His ways to you personally for the doctrine to be correct?

Must be "divine revelation" , as van has seemed to have had some "interesting" viewpoints theology wise all this time!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Van posted...

I have said many times that Calvinism is not only a mistaken doctrine; it is an obviously mistaken doctrine. Despite numerous verses indicating total depravity is a mistaken doctrine, folks say no they mean the exact opposite of what they say. Nobody can find the narrow door unless God regenerates them supernaturally. Nobody can seek God even though Jesus said to seek the kingdom of God. God wants only the elect to be saved even though scripture says God wants all men to be saved. Salvation or damnation has nothing to do with trusting in Christ or being a sinner, God decreed before mankind fell who would be saved and who would be damned and then just brings about His predestined will. In other words, the exact opposite of what scripture says.

x2 Thank you God for opening my understanding regarding this false teaching.

 

[Alive in Christ]

well, calvin and others saw the truth of the plan of salvation of God towards lost sinners, so are you disagreeing with also the Apostles themselves?

.



The heretical doctrines of calvinism were not invented until hundreds of years after th apostles walked this earth. They couldnt possibly have held to the calvinist falshoods

 

[Rippon]

Must be "divine revelation" , as van has seemed to have had some "interesting" viewpoints theology wise all this time!

It's called Vanology.

 

[saturneptune]

It's called Vanology.

He cannot answer the question I have posed four times, "why do you think God is obligated to impart 100% understanding of His ways to you personally for the doctrine to be correct?"

His theological theories are a mystery to me, as I believe this is the Van he names himself after.

 

[Yeshua1]

.



The heretical doctrines of calvinism were not invented until hundreds of years after th apostles walked this earth. They couldnt possibly have held to the calvinist falshoods

Are you saying that a Christian that holds to any form of calvinism also must be a heretic by sheer definition then?

 

[Rippon]

.



The heretical doctrines of Calvinism were not invented until hundreds of years after th [sic]apostles walked this earth. They couldnt[sic] possibly have held to the Calvinist falshoods[sic]

These particular soteriological doctrines have been known as Calvinism for more than 450 years, but all of them can be found in Holy Writ --their source. Jesus and the Apostles were very Calvinistic. See John chapters 10 and 17,Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1 to start your way back to Truth. I'll give you more medicine once you master these.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He cannot answer the question I have posed four times, "why do you think God is obligated to impart 100% understanding of His ways to you personally for the doctrine to be correct?"

His theological theories are a mystery to me, as I believe this is the Van he names himself after.

Man, you would be fun to have a Guinness with at a pub...maybe some fish & chips...and just have some laughs. Could probably do that with Pastor Durant, Thinking STUFF, Quantum and Arbo. Everyone else (maybe not Amy & Willis) is a stick in the mud.:thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Pippon..You posted..

These particular soteriological doctrines have been known as Calvinism for more than 450 years, but all of them can be found in Holy Writ --their source. Jesus and the Apostles were very Calvinistic. See John chapters 10 and 17,Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1 to start your way back to Truth. I'll give you more medicine once you master these.

Well, regarding your scriptures "being known" for 450 years, that means nothing if they are not properly understood. (see the word of faith bunch)

The scriptures, unfortunetly, have been butchered by the calvinists., just like the "word of faithers".

 

[agedman]

Pippon..You posted..



Well, regarding your scriptures "being known" for 450 years, that means nothing if they are not properly understood. (see the word of faith bunch)

The scriptures, unfortunetly, have been butchered by the calvinists., just like the "word of faithers".

Perhaps you will then take the Scriptures the Calvinists "butchered" and show exactly how they should be interpreted?

Why not start with:

Ephesians 2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
​

If you can show any human volition in that passage, please point it out. If not then it is to be understood that Calvinism did not "butcher" the Scriptures.

 

[Rippon]

The scriptures, unfortunetly,[sic] have been butchered by the Calvinists., just like the "word of faithers".

These Scripture passages have been cut straight by Calvinists for more than 450 years.

But you can also check the writings of Tyndale,Wycliffe,Bradwardine,Huss and a host of others before Calvin first set his pen to paper;Calvinists before Calvin.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Perhaps you will then take the Scriptures the Calvinists "butchered" and show exactly how they should be interpreted?

Why not start with:

Ephesians 2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
​

If you can show any human volition in that passage, please point it out. If not then it is to be understood that Calvinism did not "butcher" the Scriptures.

Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."[11]
Atonement is intended for all: Jesus's death was for all people, Jesus draws all people to himself, and all people have opportunity for salvation through faith.[12]
Jesus's death satisfies God's justice: The penalty for the sins of the elect is paid in full through Jesus's work on the cross. Thus Christ's atonement is intended for all, but requires faith to be effected. Arminius states that "Justification, when used for the act of a Judge, is either purely the imputation of righteousness through mercy… or that man is justified before God… according to the rigor of justice without any forgiveness."[13] Stephen Ashby clarifies: "Arminius allowed for only two possible ways in which the sinner might be justified: (1) by our absolute and perfect adherence to the law, or (2) purely by God's imputation of Christ's righteousness."[14]
Grace is resistible: God takes initiative in the salvation process and his grace comes to all people. This grace (often called prevenient or pre-regenerating grace) acts on all people to convince them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith. Picirilli states that "indeed this grace is so close to regeneration that it inevitably leads to regeneration unless finally resisted." [15] The offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied




Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."[11]
Atonement is intended for all: Jesus's death was for all people, Jesus draws all people to himself, and all people have opportunity for salvation through faith.[12]
Jesus's death satisfies God's justice: The penalty for the sins of the elect is paid in full through Jesus's work on the cross. Thus Christ's atonement is intended for all, but requires faith to be effected. Arminius states that "Justification, when used for the act of a Judge, is either purely the imputation of righteousness through mercy… or that man is justified before God… according to the rigor of justice without any forgiveness."[13] Stephen Ashby clarifies: "Arminius allowed for only two possible ways in which the sinner might be justified: (1) by our absolute and perfect adherence to the law, or (2) purely by God's imputation of Christ's righteousness."[14]
Grace is resistible: God takes initiative in the salvation process and his grace comes to all people. This grace (often called prevenient or pre-regenerating grace) acts on all people to convince them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith. Picirilli states that "indeed this grace is so close to regeneration that it inevitably leads to regeneration unless finally resisted." [15] The offer of salvation through grace does not act rresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism#Classical_Arminianism

 

[DrJamesAch]

He cannot answer the question I have posed four times, "why do you think God is obligated to impart 100% understanding of His ways to you personally for the doctrine to be correct?"

His theological theories are a mystery to me, as I believe this is the Van he names himself after.

Doesn't surprise me one bit that you would use a van full of pot smoking mysticists to attempt to prove your point

 

[Yeshua1]

Doesn't surprise me one bit that you would use a van full of pot smoking mysticists to attempt to prove your point

Ah, that funny smoke might expalin much of van's ramblings!