Shortened Master of Divinity degree?

[Rhetorician]

To all who have an ear:

Maybe the ATS could set up some new criteria for the MA vs. MDiv that we are discussing?

Traditionally the MDiv has been the "workhorse" for anyone wanting/seeking to be a pastor. It assumed that people who came into the program would not be graduates of Bible colleges and such.

I was told by people who have set up a new MDiv program, that the 90 hr MDiv is what it would take a pastor/minister 20 years with all things being equal to get on his own.

With that in mind, perhaps people could declare whether or not they were going into the pastoral ministry then they could do the MDiv track as it stands.

But, if people were going into the "teaching ministry" they could do an MA/PhD track like the university models.

Having both degrees, I personally still think that if a man is going to teach seminary/Bible College, then he needs the MDiv training. He needs @ a very minimum the training and education of a pastor even though he may not have pastoral experience.

As a side note: At Southern Baptist Seminary, if you were "called to preach" they would not allow you to take be in the MRE or MACE tracks. One had to go the MDiv route.

I had a friend, who said he was going to be a "religious ed man" and took the shorter MRE/MACE program. He knew all along he was going to seek a "pulpit ministry."

I am afraid that if we had the two choices laid out above; then we would have many "religious ed men" who would take the shorter route and "avoid like the plague" the MDiv degree b/c of the work load.

I had to edit this b/c I had an afterthought. If the two tracks did exsist side-by-side, then the PhD programs would have to be revamped also!!!

Thoughts or insights or "angry exhortations?" Whatdayathinkofthat?

sdg!

rd

 

[PatsFan]

If a student's Bachelor's program in Bible or Pastoral Ministry was sufficiently rigorous I'd have no problem with a 60 or 75 credit MDiv (if 15-30 credits of one's B.A. fulfilled some of the MDiv requirements). At least one seminary on the east coast has plans in the works to do something like this, Alliance Theological Seminary in New York. They do this in other fields for example Social Work. BSW students can often do an MSW in half the time.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Also think a MA type program is what is needed IF one has a very solid Bible College degree.

When I finished a great Bible College, I had 24 credits of Greek/Hebrew, 30 in English Bible and 10 in Systematic Theology, along with 50 in core humanities and a pastoral studies major.

A 36-credit MA in Biblical Theology or Biblical Counseling or PAstoral Studies would be the ideal complement.

This would also parallel exactly what I got at the University of Wisconsin (BS in History and then a 36-credit MS in History Education).

THEN focused study could be on a DMin or ThD in the seminary level OR a Ed.Spec. and Ed.D. in the secular level.

 

[Rhetorician]

Hello All!

I think one of the strongest apologetics for the lengthy MDiv degree is this.

In nearly any and all professions where there is the idea of a "practitioner" attached to it; be it a Medical Doctor (MD) generally 4 years, be it a Lawyer (JD) generally 3 years, be it Nurse Practitioner BSN and then at least a 2 years master's (I think), et al; all have multiple years worth of education/praxis in order to practice their narrowly defined discipline.

The following question has been brought up before but not discussed at length in any thread I have read.

How is it that we who handle the Word of Life think, feel, or believe that we can get by on the least amount of education to "practice ministry?"

Please, I beg you to help understand this premise?

I know I have sounded like an "educational snobb" now and in the past! But, how dare we think we can do the very least for our Master and his cause and people?! When, the worldlings are better educated by-and-large than Baptist preachers. This logic just seems totally ridiculous!!!

Help!!!!!

Please!!!!

sdg!

rd

 

[rbell]

Rhetorician

First, I think many people's motivation is not "Man, get me out of this classroom...I'm tired of learning." It's more along the lines of, "God has called me to ministry...I'm ready to get out there and do it." It's more an impatience to get going than an aversion to learning.

Secondly, my educational experience was as such: I got such a good undergrad in religion that much of my seminary work was repetitive. I cold have cut five of my seminary classes and lost virtually nothing. That's probably not true for everyone.

Thirdly, the "ivory tower" profs I had inspired me much less than those who had been in the trenches of actual church work. The "been there done that" crowd were far more relevant and practical in their applied knowledge. Again, people's experience there would depend on their schools and choices of instructors.

Fourthly, I believe there's been a lack of "day to day" type of practical instruction regarding the nuts and bolts of ministry work. Most ministers I know never received instruction in HOW to baptize someone...HOW to conduct a business meeting...HOW to present a budget...and the like. A course or two in this area (and I did get one, PTL) would be invaluable for many ministers.

Fifthly, in seminary I worked 50 hours per week, never saw my wife, went into debt, had five cars totalled by hit-and-run drivers, and was robbed twice. I wanted to get out of there and have a normal life! I think most folks in seminary simply want life to slow down so that they can enjoy it. It often has less to do with not wanting more education than it does wanting to not be broke, tired, and missing one's family.

Finally, I think you do offer good motivation--we should strive to learn all we can SO THAT we can minister effectively. Sometimes, I think we forget the goal of all them thar books we have to buy and read.

Just my $0.0005 (after taxes).

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
[QB] Hello All!

I think one of the strongest apologetics for the lengthy MDiv degree is this.

In nearly any and all professions where there is the idea of a "practitioner" attached to it; be it a Medical Doctor (MD) generally 4 years, be it a Lawyer (JD) generally 3 years, be it Nurse Practitioner BSN and then at least a 2 years master's (I think), et al; all have multiple years worth of education/praxis in order to practice their narrowly defined discipline.

The following question has been brought up before but not discussed at length in any thread I have read.

How is it that we who handle the Word of Life think, feel, or believe that we can get by on the least amount of education to "practice ministry?"

==We are not talking about getting the least amount of education. You can get all needed courses in a 60 hour MA program. You do not need another 30 hours. The careers you cited above are different. Those are things that require a certain amount of time, study, and practice in order to perform the job correctly. When it comes to Theology we must allow for study. However the time will be a lifetime of study and prayer, and the practice will be a lifetime as well. The needed courses (etc) can be fit into a 60 hour program. Keep in mind that not everyone who goes to seminary is going to be a preacher (so some students don't need preaching courses), not all are going to be missionaries (so some students don't need missions classes), not all students are going to be scholars (so some may not need over 12 hours of languages), not all students are going to be administrators (so some may not need church administration courses). You see what I mean? I am saying allow folks to get what they need (which CAN be done in a 60hour MA program) and let them go do what God has called them to do. Sort of like a technical school for theology (etc). This is not about cutting corners it is about cutting out time/energy that could be spent on other things that are more important to the call of the individual student.

Martin.

 

[Rhetorician]

Martin,

Don't think that I do not appreciate your perspective and insight, b/c I truly do.

However, you and I both know that the "call to minister" is a fluid call and one that is not "static." It is also the "call to prepare" is it not? Most will not know what they will do for the rest of their lives. It seems to me that the "get on with our lives" argument that you made above is just the kind of thing that should be avoided. If there is one thing that the MDiv equips people to do; it is just about everything.

One could be a pastor, a teacher @ a Church-based Bible eollege, a religious ed man ("second man" in the parlance of the IFB), missionary, church planter, denominational worker, song leader, youth director or youth minister, go on to do doctoral work, etc., et al.

The case you make is the same one I hear my college students make: why do we need all this other stuff that does not have anything to do with nursing? Because, one of the problems of our American educational establishment is, we generalize before we specialize. You need the other just to make you a well-rounded liberal arts educated person.

The "Just let me get on to what God has called me to do" argument seems oh so weak to me. I had friends in my first seminary experience that said the same thing. When they came to seminary they would get a small country church. Then they would drop out of seminary b/c the work load was to much. "And, is that not the reason I came to seminary any way?" Many of them quit! Many of the ones who quit ended up quiting the ministry. On many levels, the 90 MDiv is "God's boot camp!" And that is another reason for the length of the degree.

I know many will not buy into "fellowship" opinions on this seemingly hot topic/subject. But, the time and money spent on an RA and/or ATS Master of Divinity accredited degree will be paid back "in spades" long term in any full time vocational position. IMHO!

sdg!

rd

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
It seems to me that the "get on with our lives" argument that you made above is just the kind of thing that should be avoided.

I have heard that argument from the poorest students in class. Those kind of people continue to be poor unless they get a jolt sometime. One time when I heard that one too many times I asked the student why he thought that after my being in the field for 35 years he seeemd to disagree with me. Never heard that again.

The case you make is the same one I hear my college students make: why do we need all this other stuff that does not have anything to do with nursing? Because, one of the problems of our American educational establishment is, we generalize before we specialize. You need the other just to make you a well-rounded liberal arts educated person.

It is a proven fact that the students who do not understand the basics will not and cannot go onto more advanced learning and research. I see that all the time in my profession. In fact that is the subject of some research I have done.

The "Just let me get on to what God has called me to do" argument seems oh so weak to me. I had friends in my first seminary experience that said the same thing. When they came to seminary they would get a small country church. Then they would drop out of seminary b/c the work load was to much. "And, is that not the reason I came to seminary any way?" Many of them quit!

The same thing happens in every profession and field of study.

I know many will not buy into "fellowship" opinions on this seemingly hot topic/subject. But, the time and money spent on an RA and/or ATS Master of Divinity accredited degree will be paid back "in spades" long term in any full time vocational position. IMHO!

I spent some time studying under one of the best in the world in my field and it has paid me back many times in confidence, satisfaction, financially, publications, attitude, knowledge and assurance that the job is done well. Some of the work I have been hired to do was work that I know I couild not have done unless I had the training. It has also put me in some of the homes of well known people with which I am able to share my faith with. I have not had to go back once to redo any work I did. One of the things I have noticed is that the best in the world today have been taught by those who were the best then. Those today have not had to re-invent the wheel and do a work of trial and error. Instead they are able to build on what they learned from the masters who taught them.

 

[Martin]

Rhetorician:

I know many will not buy into "fellowship" opinions on this seemingly hot topic/subject. But, the time and money spent on an RA and/or ATS Master of Divinity accredited degree will be paid back "in spades" long term in any full time vocational position.

==No arguments there. People will get out of an education what they put into it. That is why I oppose easy degree programs (oncampus or distance) that don't challenge students. The best teachers I had (in college and seminary) were the hardest. So I am not promoting an easy route or escape. In fact I am promoting just the opposite. While I support a shorter program (60 instead of 90) I believe the program(s) need to be very challenging. Longer programs do not equal better programs.
________________________________________

The case you make is the same one I hear my college students make: why do we need all this other stuff that does not have anything to do with nursing? Because, one of the problems of our American educational establishment is, we generalize before we specialize. You need the other just to make you a well-rounded liberal arts educated person.

==Again I agree. I am refering to the graduate level not the undergraduate level. I have to assume that the person entering seminary have a liberal arts undergraduate education or a Bible college education. Either way they should have a certain number of courses in religion/Bible and they should be active members of their church. What I would prefer is that a person have a four year degree from a secular University in a subject like Sociology, History, or Education (etc) then get a year or so at a Bible College and then enter seminary. That, along with involvement at the local church, should allow them to be prepared for the graduate program(s). I took that route. I got a four year degree in Sociology, went to Bible College for a year, then to Seminary. While I am not going into any offical ministry (pastor, missionary, etc) that set up prepared me very well for Seminary and for my future educational pursuits and teaching career.

_______________________________________

I had friends in my first seminary experience that said the same thing. When they came to seminary they would get a small country church. Then they would drop out of seminary b/c the work load was to much. "And, is that not the reason I came to seminary any way?" Many of them quit! Many of the ones who quit ended up quiting the ministry. On many levels, the 90 MDiv is "God's boot camp!" And that is another reason for the length of the degree.

==Maybe some need courses in time management?

I wonder if they left ministry because they quit the degree program or did they get burned out because of trying to do too much? Just a thought. Also, and I am not saying this applies to any of your friends, many people go into the ministry for the wrong reasons. Some go for family (mom, dad, granny wants them to be a preacher...it is expected). Others go because they think it is an easy job (wrong) and still others go for other wrong reasons. If a person is not called into the ministry, it does not matter how long or short the degree program is, they will fail in the ministry. Thus I don't see the length of the program as important here. A intense 60 hour graduate program will weed out the non-dedicated (most anyway). I want to focus on the term "GRADUATE" for a moment. I fear that many seminaries don't have real "graduate" level programs. It seems that sometimes the programs are a bit too easy. I understand the reasons for that sometimes but I still believe it to be unacceptable. Graduate level seminary study should be just as academically demanding as medical school or law school. Seminaries should require the MAT or the GRE just like other graduate schools do. Those who can't handle that level of study should remain at the undergraduate level. The undergraduate level offers the same type of degrees. I reference programs at Southeastern (etc).

In Christ,
Martin.

 

[Convicted by the Spirit]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
Martin,

Don't think that I do not appreciate your perspective and insight, b/c I truly do.

However, you and I both know that the "call to minister" is a fluid call and one that is not "static." It is also the "call to prepare" is it not? Most will not know what they will do for the rest of their lives. It seems to me that the "get on with our lives" argument that you made above is just the kind of thing that should be avoided. If there is one thing that the MDiv equips people to do; it is just about everything.

One could be a pastor, a teacher @ a Church-based Bible eollege, a religious ed man ("second man" in the parlance of the IFB), missionary, church planter, denominational worker, song leader, youth director or youth minister, go on to do doctoral work, etc., et al.

The case you make is the same one I hear my college students make: why do we need all this other stuff that does not have anything to do with nursing? Because, one of the problems of our American educational establishment is, we generalize before we specialize. You need the other just to make you a well-rounded liberal arts educated person.

The "Just let me get on to what God has called me to do" argument seems oh so weak to me. I had friends in my first seminary experience that said the same thing. When they came to seminary they would get a small country church. Then they would drop out of seminary b/c the work load was to much. "And, is that not the reason I came to seminary any way?" Many of them quit! Many of the ones who quit ended up quiting the ministry. On many levels, the 90 MDiv is "God's boot camp!" And that is another reason for the length of the degree.

I know many will not buy into "fellowship" opinions on this seemingly hot topic/subject. But, the time and money spent on an RA and/or ATS Master of Divinity accredited degree will be paid back "in spades" long term in any full time vocational position. IMHO!

sdg!

rd

I find your comments disturbing. Like you are looking down on anyone that does not get a M.Div and a Doctoral in Ministry. Do you really think we will stop learning once we get out of Seminary? Sounds that way.

 

[Rhetorician]

I think that our profession demands at least as much preparation as a medical doctor or lawyer. We are dealing with the souls of men and eternal things of the highest nature.

How could anyone want to be prepared with the least amount of education is something that is hard for me to understand?

sdg!

rd

 

[Paul33]

I do think that a 60 hour M.A. is sufficient for the ministry if a person has an undergrad degree in Bible. In fact, I think the seminaries should award a M.Div. in two years to those who do have a B.A. in Bible.

I could easily have eliminated the "practical" courses from my seminary degree and still have gotten what I needed since I already took homiletics, church planting, administration courses, etc.

 

[Rhetorician]

To all who have an ear:

I found these quotes on the e-blog of Dr. Ray Van Nest. He teaches in the Christian Studies program of Union University in Jackson, TN. They are taken from "The Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter. Read them, and then make a case to me we that we need a "Shortened MDiv Degree!"

Quote:

“Oh, what qualifications are necessary for that man who has such a charge upon him as we have! How many difficulties in theology need to be understood! What fundamentals of the faith must of necessity be known! How many obscure texts of Scripture must be expounded! How many duties must be done, wherein we may fail if we do not understand clearly their character, their purpose, and their context! How many sins we need to avoid, which cannot be done without understanding and
foresight!
How many sly and subtle temptations we need to expose before our people’s eyes – in order to escape them! How many weighty and intricate cases of conscience do we need almost daily to resolve! Can so much work, and such work as this, be done by raw, unqualified men?

What strongholds have we to batter down, and how may there are of them! What subtle, diligent, and obstinate resistance must we expect to deal with in every heart! How prejudice blocks our way in seeking to obtain a fair hearing! Often we are not disputing on equal terms, but with children who cannot understand us.” (29-30)

“O dear brothers, what men then should we be in skill, in resolution, and in unwearied diligence, that have all this to contend with and to do?” (30)

“So may I say to every minister, seeing how all these challenges lie upon us, what manner of persons ought we to be in all holy endeavors and resolutions for our work!” (30)

“Do not your reason and conscience tell you that if you dare to venture on so high a work as this, you should spare no pains to be fitted to perform it? It is not now and then a random and idle exercise or taste of studies that will serve to make a sound man of God.” (31)

This should push all to be the very best we can be up to and including the most and best education possible.

sdg!

rd

 

[Rhetorician]

ConvictedByTheSpirit,

I am so sorry that you think I am looking down on anyone. That is not my intention at all. But, it is my intention to argue for a professionally trained clergy b/c of the gravity of what we do and whom we serve.

See the note of Richard Baxter above. It expresses well my sentiment.

sdg!

rd

 

[Paul33]

Rhet,

All of what Baxter says is true. Now what is the best way to get that education. I think a combination of bachelors and masters level courses followed by an intentional one year full-time paid residency under the guidance of a qualified senior pastor in a local church. Emphasize "qualified."

Then on-going cluster groups of pastors where pastoral issues can be discussed monthly.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I propose a comprimise. I propose a MDiv with the full 90 hours of teaching by short (5'5" or shorter)theologins.

 

[Convicted by the Spirit]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
ConvictedByTheSpirit,

I am so sorry that you think I am looking down on anyone. That is not my intention at all. But, it is my intention to argue for a professionally trained clergy b/c of the gravity of what we do and whom we serve.

See the note of Richard Baxter above. It expresses well my sentiment.

sdg!

rd

I think you make excellent points and so does Baxter and I truley believe we need to strive to be the best at what we do, but I think some people might spend 30 extra hours in school and never use them and thus have in some ways wasted the time, energy and money in something they will never apply.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
I propose a comprimise (sic). I propose a MDiv with the full 90 hours of teaching by short (5'5" or shorter)theologins (sic).

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Paul33:
I do think that a 60 hour M.A. is sufficient for the ministry if a person has an undergrad degree in Bible. In fact, I think the seminaries should award a M.Div. in two years to those who do have a B.A. in Bible.

I could easily have eliminated the "practical" courses from my seminary degree and still have gotten what I needed since I already took homiletics, church planting, administration courses, etc.

Paul, I believe there are some institutions that do give credit for Bible College backgrounds with reduced credits required for an MDiv.
Ed

 

[Shane C]

I'm currently attending an Assemblies of God bible college in Waxahachie, Texas. Most of my textbooks are written by Baptist scholars and theologians. Also, most of my professors have their doctorate degrees from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I'm in the process of completing a 72 hour M.Div. degree. A lot of bible colleges and seminaries are switching from 90 to 72 hour M.Div. degree programs. I believe 72 hour M.Div. degree programs can provide quality biblical education when done right. However, most of the 72 hour M.Div. programs I've seen are watered down. In other words, they lack enough coursework in Biblical Studies and Theology to be considered a scholarly degree. Most of the degree plans consisted primarily of practical theology, and required no coursework in Greek and Hebrew. Shouldn't a M.Div. degree program be centered around scholarly coursework in Biblical Studies and Theology???