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Should a Baptist University President be an Orthodox Christian?
- Thread starter Rev. G
- Start date
David Cooke Jr
New Member
Since my quote started this mess, I'll weigh in. Who decides what is "orthodox" or not? And how does one do it? Was Jesus orthodox?
Having had the benefit of knowing Dr. Godsey and hearing him speak on his book, I'd like to offer this insight. Doctor Godsey summarized his personal guidlines at the time (about a year after his book was published) as: Worship God. Read the Bible. Follow Jesus. For him, using the wrong verb with the wrong object is dangerous.For example: Worshipping the bible instead of reading it. Many moderates and liberals feel like many "conservative" views of scripture borders (or actually endorses) idolatry.
Worshipping Jesus as opposed to following Jesus. Okay, so Jesus is God so we should worship him, first, right? The problem here is that Jesus asked us to follow him, not worship him. HE told us to follow. HE never said to worship. I'll point out that its alot easier to worship Jesus than follow him. (When is the last time YOU carried a cross or washed someone's feet?).
So much of the critisism of Dr. Godsey misses the point. If we spent more time concerned with whether or not Dr. Godsey was carrying out his job as JESUS would have him do than whether or not he fit OUR mold of orthodoxy, then this topic's question would appear as irrelevant as it should be. Maybe the real question is, should people who make no attempt to follow Jesus be the president (or trustee) of a Baptist seminary or University? In my view, if we enforced that view during the Resurgence, the takeover would not have happened, because those who carried it out would be exempt from service.
Having had the benefit of knowing Dr. Godsey and hearing him speak on his book, I'd like to offer this insight. Doctor Godsey summarized his personal guidlines at the time (about a year after his book was published) as: Worship God. Read the Bible. Follow Jesus. For him, using the wrong verb with the wrong object is dangerous.For example: Worshipping the bible instead of reading it. Many moderates and liberals feel like many "conservative" views of scripture borders (or actually endorses) idolatry.
Worshipping Jesus as opposed to following Jesus. Okay, so Jesus is God so we should worship him, first, right? The problem here is that Jesus asked us to follow him, not worship him. HE told us to follow. HE never said to worship. I'll point out that its alot easier to worship Jesus than follow him. (When is the last time YOU carried a cross or washed someone's feet?).
So much of the critisism of Dr. Godsey misses the point. If we spent more time concerned with whether or not Dr. Godsey was carrying out his job as JESUS would have him do than whether or not he fit OUR mold of orthodoxy, then this topic's question would appear as irrelevant as it should be. Maybe the real question is, should people who make no attempt to follow Jesus be the president (or trustee) of a Baptist seminary or University? In my view, if we enforced that view during the Resurgence, the takeover would not have happened, because those who carried it out would be exempt from service.
David, your post is full of liberal rhetoric and catch phrases.
And absolutely false doctrine. Jesus teaches us to "follow him" not "worship him"? Hello. That is beyond belief.
We do not know how "Jesus" would have acted as president of a university. We do, however, have his WORD to show us what "we" are to do and be and believe.
Doctrine matters. Words have meaning. Post-modern institutions can have buddhists run them for all I care, but Baptist schools should be held to a biblical standard.
And absolutely false doctrine. Jesus teaches us to "follow him" not "worship him"? Hello. That is beyond belief.
We do not know how "Jesus" would have acted as president of a university. We do, however, have his WORD to show us what "we" are to do and be and believe.
Doctrine matters. Words have meaning. Post-modern institutions can have buddhists run them for all I care, but Baptist schools should be held to a biblical standard.
David Cooke Jr
New Member
That's just great. I was trying for moderate propoganda and "catchy" phrases.
David Cooke Jr
New Member
It would be beyond belief, were it not in the bible. Jesus said "follow me". Look it up (I suggest starting with the gospel of Mark, which is, after all, in the bible).
Now, show me where he says "worship me".
You are right. Doctrine matters. But not as much as actions, which demonstrate your living doctrine. Which is why Jesus said "follow me", not "worship me". Parrotting doctrine is something anybody on the internet can do. Following Jesus (which is the standard he set) is alot harder.
Assuming that you have accurately quoted Dr. Godsey with a view to the original context (and I can't imagine any context which would make these statements acceptable, unless they come from a list of heresies Godsey was citing in order to deny them!), I think it is clear that the man is a heretic. Not only should he not be allowed to be the president of an ostensibly orthodox Christian school, but he should be brought under Church discipline, given the chance to repent of his sin and accept Christ as He is revealed in Scripture, and excommunicated if he refuses to repent.
Pastork
Pastork
David Cooke Jr
New Member
Or maybe Mercer should give him a raise, and he can continue to serve the church in the exemplary fashion that he has thus far. By the way, this "heretic" has inspired many to serve God and his church. Dr. Godsey's son, Hunter, is a missionary and former youth minster.
WHICH Jesus?
Let's think about your statement and rephrase it a bit:
"If we spent more time concerned with whether or not THE MORMONS / THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are carrying out their job as JESUS would have them do than whether or not they fit OUR mold of orthodoxy, then this topic's question would appear as irrelevant as it should be."
Is there such a thing as orthodoxy? I believe so.
"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard!"
- The Apostle Paul (Acts 20:29-31)
Who is Jesus?
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
Worship Jesus?
John 20:28-29 "And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.""
Mat 2:11 "And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh."
Mat 8:2 "And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.""
Mat 9:18 "While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.""
Mat 14:33 "Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God.""
Mat 15:25 "Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!""
Mat 28:9 "And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him."
Mat 28:17 "When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted."
Mark 5:6 "When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him."
Luke 24:52 "And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,"
John 9:38 "Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him."
Rev 5:6-14 "And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" 14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever."
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
Worship Jesus?
John 20:28-29 "And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.""
Mat 2:11 "And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh."
Mat 8:2 "And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.""
Mat 9:18 "While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.""
Mat 14:33 "Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God.""
Mat 15:25 "Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!""
Mat 28:9 "And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him."
Mat 28:17 "When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted."
Mark 5:6 "When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him."
Luke 24:52 "And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,"
John 9:38 "Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him."
Rev 5:6-14 "And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" 14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever."
David Cooke Jr
New Member
Major B and RevG,
the long list of scripture references fails to include a single one where Jesus asks us to worship him.
That verse does not exist.
Jesus did say "follow me". Which is why people like Dr. Godsey and I think that following Jesus should be our primary focus.
If you think Jesus is important enough to worship, then surely you think he's important enough to accept his call to follow him.
If you think following Jesus should not be your focus, than I'd like to know why your emphasis is more important than Jesus's? Why is it more important to do what men say to do (worship him) than it is to do what Jesus said to do (follow him). The fact that some folks think they know better than Jesus yet call themselves "Christians" astounds me. Well, it did before I started posting at this website.
the long list of scripture references fails to include a single one where Jesus asks us to worship him.
That verse does not exist.
Jesus did say "follow me". Which is why people like Dr. Godsey and I think that following Jesus should be our primary focus.
If you think Jesus is important enough to worship, then surely you think he's important enough to accept his call to follow him.
If you think following Jesus should not be your focus, than I'd like to know why your emphasis is more important than Jesus's? Why is it more important to do what men say to do (worship him) than it is to do what Jesus said to do (follow him). The fact that some folks think they know better than Jesus yet call themselves "Christians" astounds me. Well, it did before I started posting at this website.
David Cooke Jr
New Member
Wolves who raise conformity to man-made doctrines and opinions above the instructions that Jesus gave us? You bet.
I can't figure out if liberal reasoning is insane or inane, or both.
That long list (partial, by the way, by far) did not include a reference where Jesus in His earthly ministry asked for worship, because in his humiliation, that was not His mission. However, it included lots of places where He accepted worship, and there is nary a place where He did not accept worship, except when it was insincere from pretended believers (e.g., John 2:24-25, and the rich young ruler, etc.).
He is worshipped in Heaven itself (Rev 5:6-14); the Father commands the Angels to worship the Son (Heb 1:3-14); and at the mention off the very Name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every toungue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! (Phil 2:9-11). Jesus not to be worshipped? Beam me up, Scotty, there is no intelligent life in liberal theology land!
That long list (partial, by the way, by far) did not include a reference where Jesus in His earthly ministry asked for worship, because in his humiliation, that was not His mission. However, it included lots of places where He accepted worship, and there is nary a place where He did not accept worship, except when it was insincere from pretended believers (e.g., John 2:24-25, and the rich young ruler, etc.).
He is worshipped in Heaven itself (Rev 5:6-14); the Father commands the Angels to worship the Son (Heb 1:3-14); and at the mention off the very Name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every toungue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! (Phil 2:9-11). Jesus not to be worshipped? Beam me up, Scotty, there is no intelligent life in liberal theology land!
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
The folks running Mercer are infidels, not Christians. There are still multitudes of these wolves operating within the SBC. This illustrates the mess in which the SBC is, in spite of all it's boast of a conservative resurgance.
The Southern Baptists who love Christ, the Scriptures, their children, and their own souls will immediately sever all ecclesiastical ties with such men. As the Lord said,
"Come out from among them and be ye separate."
Mark Osgatharp
The Southern Baptists who love Christ, the Scriptures, their children, and their own souls will immediately sever all ecclesiastical ties with such men. As the Lord said,
"Come out from among them and be ye separate."
Mark Osgatharp
Does the Bible teach that Jesus is risen from the dead?
Does the Bible teach that He had that power within Himself?
Does the Bible teach that the Father commanded the angels in Heaven to worship Him?
Does the Bible teach that all things consist (hold together) in Him?
Does the Bible teach that He upholds all things by the power of His Word?
etc. etc. etc. etc.
Oh, and it has been my observation that those who object to long lists of verses and "proof texts" (in context ones, of course), usually do so because there are no verses to defend their heresies.
Does the Bible teach that He had that power within Himself?
Does the Bible teach that the Father commanded the angels in Heaven to worship Him?
Does the Bible teach that all things consist (hold together) in Him?
Does the Bible teach that He upholds all things by the power of His Word?
etc. etc. etc. etc.
Oh, and it has been my observation that those who object to long lists of verses and "proof texts" (in context ones, of course), usually do so because there are no verses to defend their heresies.
David Cooke Jr
New Member
David:
Does the Bible teach the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Does the Bible teach the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as Savior?
Does the Bible teach against universalism?
Does the Bible teach the omnipotence of God? </font>[/QUOTE]Does the Bible teach...
Not to state the obvious, but "the Bible" teaches lots of contradictory things, and everybody picks and chooses what they follow and what they don't. (If you disagree with me on that you haven't read it lately).
I notice you did not say "Does Jesus teach...".
No one has given a good reason why we should supplant what Jesus asked us to do-"follow me" in favor of what others decided to do-worship him.
Why do you think your emphasis is better than Jesus's? Are you better than him? Obviously you think that or you would stop placing your emphasis above his- and you would stop critisizing others for doing what he SAID to do.
Rev. Joshua
<img src=/cjv.jpg>
I clearly have am not unbiased where Dr. Godsey is concerned since I know him and have an M.Div. from Mercer. I am very grateful for his book, and think that it is a lay-accessible approach to the breadth of what is taught in many mainstream Christian seminaries. We'd need to go point by point to define what is orthodox Christianity (as opposed to Orthodox Christianity - which is what I thought the purpose of the thread was at first 
).
Nevertheless, the question isn't whether or not Dr. Godsey is an orthodox Christian; but whether or not the president of a baptist university should be an orthodox Christian. My answer is no.
"Baptist" does not mean "part of a denomination." In the context of institutions, it means "supported by local churches" or it can mean "committed to preserving baptist principles." Baptists can see the need to create a competitve, academically rigorous college without seeing the need to put a baptist or even a Christian in charge. I don't need my mechanic to be a Christian for her to do a good job fixing my car. Likewise, I don't need the president of my University to be a Christian for him to be a good educator.
Joshua
).Nevertheless, the question isn't whether or not Dr. Godsey is an orthodox Christian; but whether or not the president of a baptist university should be an orthodox Christian. My answer is no.
"Baptist" does not mean "part of a denomination." In the context of institutions, it means "supported by local churches" or it can mean "committed to preserving baptist principles." Baptists can see the need to create a competitve, academically rigorous college without seeing the need to put a baptist or even a Christian in charge. I don't need my mechanic to be a Christian for her to do a good job fixing my car. Likewise, I don't need the president of my University to be a Christian for him to be a good educator.
Joshua