Should a Baptist University President be an Orthodox Christian?

[David Cooke Jr]

Great input, Joshua. I like your approach.
Your steering the thread back to its original question highlights a difference I have with you on this subject, though. I actually agree with the idea that the president of a Baptist University should be a man of the Christian faith. My disagreement with many on this board is in deciding who is Christian and who is not.
I don't think the Christian "club" is limited to American pro-life conservative protestant evangelicals who vote republican. (I have an aversian to definitions of Christian that would necessarily exclude Christ and his apostles).

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.: I notice you did not say "Does Jesus teach"

David Cooke Jr.,

Jesus: "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me."

Jesus: "I and my Father are one."

Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Jesus: "Thou shalt be thrust down to hell."

Jesus: "When you see Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out."

Jesus: "So shall it be in the end of the world; the angels shall come foth and sever the wicked from among the just."

Jesus: "With God all things are possible."

These scriptures tell us what Jesus did say about these things while He was on earth, just as surely as He said, "follow me."

On top of that, Jesus also claimed to be the Lord and, therefore, every time the Old Testament Scriptures says "thus saith the Lord" it is no different than if it said "thus saith Jesus."

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
.....
I don't think the Christian "club" is limited to American pro-life conservative protestant evangelicals who vote republican. (I have an aversian to definitions of Christian that would necessarily exclude Christ and his apostles).

Dear David,
I certainly agree with the first sentence above.
I do not agree with what I think you mean by the second.
What I get from the totality of your comments on this thread is that you are denying that Jesus is God the Son and that He clearly claimed to be God. Please correct me if I am reading your comments incorrectly.

Karen

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:

Does the Bible teach...
Not to state the obvious, but "the Bible" teaches lots of contradictory things, and everybody picks and chooses what they follow and what they don't. (If you disagree with me on that you haven't read it lately)...[/QUOTE]

First of all, I read it and STUDY it all the time. Because of that, my emphasis is the same as Jesus, yours is not. He said, "If you do not believe that I Am, you will die in your sins..." John 8:24; "Before Abraham was, I AM..." John 8:58; "I Am the Way the Truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me..." John 14:6. With reference to the New Testament which was going to be written, He said, JOhn 14:25“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. "; and John 16:12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

The only contradictions in the Bible occur with those whose minds are not exercisd by Truth. Every word of Scripture is true. If Jesus is not who He claimed to be, He is no Savior at all, He is no good teacher. When Thomas openly called Jesus "My Lord and My God." (literally, "...of me THE LORD, and of me THE GOD..."), did Jesus rebuke Thomas or even ignore his worship? No, the reaction of Jesus to Thomas' declaration of Jesus' deity was, John 20:29, "...Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Furthermore, if one doubts the veracity of the other 23 books of the New Testament (to say nothing of the rest of the Bible), then that person can't know that Jesus said anything!

Without a divine, risen Savior, Christianity is the biggest joke and most monumental fraud ever perpetrtated on man...

1 Cor 15:12Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep..."

And, I must add Paul's bottom line to the liberal thinkers who opposed true doctrine in his day...

1 Cor 14:37 "...If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant."

 

[NarrowWay]

I think that when the SBC, ABC-USA, or other Baptist organizations support a Baptist college they expect that that college will be one which provides an excellent education in a setting which promotes a Christian world view and life style. I spent my freshman year at a small Christian college and I'd have to say that it met those criteria. That was what my parents and I expected when I went there and that's what we got.

That being said, there are wide variations in people's beliefs who call themselves Baptists. If a denomination wants a fundamentalist college that's fine. They run the institution and they have the right to determine what type school it should. On the other hand, if they want an institution in which healthy questions are raised about beliefs and students are given the academic freedom to determine for themselves what they belief rather than have it dictated to them, that's fine as well.

However, I agree with many of the posters here that if the college is presenting itself as a Christian college it should uphold the basic precepts of Christianity. Academic and intellectual freedom should be upheld but the very important objective of developing and maintaining a Christian college should should be maintained. By the way, I think this is much easier with a small college than with a large college or university.

Should a Baptist college president be an orthodox Christian? Personally, I've only seen the term orthodox applied to Jews not to Christians. He should be a sincere Christian who holds the basic Christian beliefs.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Originally posted by Karen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
.....
I don't think the Christian "club" is limited to American pro-life conservative protestant evangelicals who vote republican. (I have an aversian to definitions of Christian that would necessarily exclude Christ and his apostles).

Dear David,
I certainly agree with the first sentence above.
I do not agree with what I think you mean by the second.
What I get from the totality of your comments on this thread is that you are denying that Jesus is God the Son and that He clearly claimed to be God. Please correct me if I am reading your comments incorrectly.

Karen </font>[/QUOTE]Karen,
I am not denying that Jesus is who he claimed to be. What brought me into this thread was the assertation that Mercer president Kirby Godsey is a heretic. He is not. In making my point, I mentioned Godsey's summary of his faith: Worship God, Follow Jesus, and read the bible. Dr. Godsey says something to the effect that if you mix up those three, you are in trouble. (Read the bible, don't worship it. Focus on following Jesus, not worshipping him).
I also wanted to point out something that is lost on most folks- that Jesus wants us to follow him. He never instructed us to worship him. (You know, he even said "don't call me good" or "why do you call me good? only God is good").
I think many folks approach to Jesus is a cop-out. They spend alot of time glorifying Jesus with their mouth, talk about "faith,not works", but they NEVER follow him. They never eat with "sinners". They never feed the hungry. They never wash anybody's feet (especially nobody beneath their station). They never shoo their friends or co-workers away to talk to children. They never sacrifice their lives to help people who don't deserve it .
Worshipping Jesus is easy. Its like falling off a log. So is blindly parrotting some "orthodox" doctrine that MAY OR MAY NOT be true.
But the way Jesus designed for us, not the SBC, the CBF, The RCC or anyone else, but the way Jesus designed it was that we would follow him. If we really meant it, we'd sell all we had, give it to the poor, and carry out a task so difficult its like carrying the instrument of our own death across our backs- at least, that is what Jesus likened it to. And we'd realize that MUCH of what we say about our faith is a fuction of our living in 21st century North Amercia. We are a product of our culture more than we admit, and of our faith less than we will ever admit.
Want to worship Jesus? Go ahead. But do what he said to do first. That is what he would have you do (if you believe him).

 

[Charlesga]

Very well said, David. I've haven't read the entire thread, but I appreicate your comments here.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Originally posted by Charlesga:
Very well said, David. I've haven't read the entire thread, but I appreicate your comments here.

Thank you, Charles. Now, if I could only live it as well as I talk it...

 

[NarrowWay]

I agree David. Personally, I believe that the theological theory of Eternal Security is the most dangerous concept in the church today. Salvation through faith in Christ by His grace alone. Certainly. But the Bible teaches us that Christianity means much more than walking down the aisle and shaking the preacher's hand one day ten years ago and doing nothing since.

From this initial decision onward, the Christian is somewhere between his past conversion experience and his future entrance into the kingdom, that is, assuming he endures to the end. In other words, though he now possesses eternal life, he is also on the road that leads to [eternal] life (Mt. 7:14 cf. Mt. 25:46) with the possibility of wandering off (1 Tim. 6:10,21; 2 Tim. 2:18; 2 Pet. 2:15), turning back (Jn. 6:66; 1 Tim. 5:15), falling away (Lk. 8:13; Mt. 11:6; 26:31), etc. In fact, turning away from the Lord is somewhat commonplace (Mt. 24:10; 2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 4:4).

 

[superdave]

The above post is actually one of the most dangerous teachings present in christianity today.

It undermines the very character and nature of God, and is not consistent with a valid interpretive method and the scriptures

Perseverance of the Saints is a historical Baptist distinctive.

Those who fall away or turn away "went out from us, because they were not of us" they were professors of faith, but never possessed saving faith. Those who are the elect of God cannot be removed from his hand.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Agree, SuperDave. It is a debilitating doctrine (just look at the insecurity of the Arminian) and is a poster child of liberalism who thrive on "works" salvation.

We must continue to trumpet and herald eternal security or else join the crowd and say that God is an evil liar when He promised us "eternal" life.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Agree, SuperDave. It is a debilitating doctrine (just look at the insecurity of the Arminian) and is a poster child of liberalism who thrive on "works" salvation.

We must continue to trumpet and herald eternal security or else join the crowd and say that God is an evil liar when He promised us "eternal" life.

I would rather stumble in my doctrine while following in Christ's path than be smugly assured of my "correctness" while I sat at my keyboard and did nothing to follow Christ's example. What good is it to be right if you never DO what Jesus said? Faith without works is DEAD.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
I would rather stumble in my doctrine while following in Christ's path than be smugly assured of my "correctness" while I sat at my keyboard and did nothing to follow Christ's example. What good is it to be right if you never DO what Jesus said? Faith without works is DEAD.

You have some serious issues, friend. You draw an interesting picture of yourself and me:

YOU are following Christ's path. You are doing what Jesus said. You are NOT like me.

For I am smug in being correct. I am sitting at my keyboard doing nothing. I have faith without works and am dead.

You nailed it. That's the issue for sure. Someone who expects a Baptist leader to actually believe basic Bible truths (a number of which have been discussed in this thread) is definitely smug, doing nothing, without faith and dead.

Yep. Mea culpa.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Dr. Bob,
I do not know whether or not you are following Christ's path or not. I do know, however, that you don't think following him is as important as holding to "correct" doctrine.
Maybe you are not smug either. Perhaps I'm just jealous of your confidence.

Meanwhile, I'm off to work on some of my issues. I'll start with the serious ones first.

 

[Major B]

There is no more serious issue than believing the right thing. I simply can't believe intelligent people miss this. Now, believing the right thing is not the only important thing, but it is the essence of the Wicket Gate (see: Bunyan and Spurgeon), the gate of saving faith. We are not saved by faith in some indefinite thing, nor are we saved by faith in any old thing, or by faith itself. The Object of our faith is all important. If we trust in the fivefold path of Islam, we will be eternally lost. If we trust in the path of Mormonism's ceremonies, we are doomed. If we trust in the Watchtower's promise of an earthly paradise for all the Jonadabs (the ones who came in after the 144,000 were sealed) we will be sadly and tragically disappointed. If we believe that Jesus was a less-than-absolutely-divine teacher, and we pretend to follow this false Jesus, we will be lost.

The book of 1 John, which I just finished expositing in Sunday School class over a 1 1/2 year period, is a book which provides a rotating cycle of tests to determine the reality of our faith. One of the tests is the test of correct doctrine. It is not the only test; there is the test of love, and the test of obedience, but doctrine is a major test. The apostle of love himself, John, wrote these harsh words to describe the test and those who fail it:

(1 John 2:18-23) "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. {19} They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. {20} But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. {21} I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. {22} Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. {23} Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

(1 John 4:1-6) "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. {2} By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, {3} and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. {4} You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. {5} They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. {6} We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

These are not snippets taken out of context; these are plainly-written truths. If one does not believe the right things about who Jesus is, that person is of the world, not of the Truth. In a subsequent letter, John had a very direct instruction for how to deal with such.

(2 John 1:4-11) "I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. {5} And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. {6} This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. {7} For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. {8} Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. {9} Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. {10} If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; {11} for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

I did not invent this; these are not the doctrines of men; these are the words inspired by the Holy Spirit through His penman John. These are black words on white paper, as plain as can be.

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Major B,
this work produced by John or one of his disciples writing under his name must be subordinate to the words of Jesus. Jesus said the most important commandments were to love God and love your neighbor. He then gave an example of what it means to be a neighbor with the Samaritan story.
The bottom line is that anything in the bible must be read in the light of the ministry of Jesus.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
Major B,
this work produced by John or one of his disciples writing under his name must be subordinate to the words of Jesus. Jesus said the most important commandments were to love God and love your neighbor. He then gave an example of what it means to be a neighbor with the Samaritan story.
The bottom line is that anything in the bible must be read in the light of the ministry of Jesus.

David,

Could you please explain to me how we know and can discern what "the light of the ministry of Jesus" is unless we have learned it from the Bible?

 

[Major B]

1. John wrote this epistle.

2. ALL the Bible is authoritative. With the caveat that we must determine what covenant is in force at what time, all the Bible is equally authoritative. The words inspired by Jesus through the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, 16:12-15, Heb 2:1-4, 1 Cor 14:37), are just as authoritative as the recorded words of Jesus recalled by the power of the Holy Spirit and written down (in John's case) by the same human pen inspired by the same Holy Spirit. If you don't believe that the Word is authoritative and equally authoritative, how can you have a basis for discussion with those who believe in the Bible's authority? The answer is, there is not much room for discussion. It is like trying to discuss physics with someone who does not believe in quantum mechanics!

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
Major B,
this work produced by John or one of his disciples writing under his name must be subordinate to the words of Jesus. Jesus said the most important commandments were to love God and love your neighbor. He then gave an example of what it means to be a neighbor with the Samaritan story.
The bottom line is that anything in the bible must be read in the light of the ministry of Jesus.

What Jesus? What Ministry? What story of the Samaritan? If the apostle's inspired words are no good at one end of the NT, how can you trust them at the other end? The same Jesus made plain to the Jewish leaders that who He is was all important (John 8:24). When Jesus taught on love and gave the example of the Samaritan, if that was all there was to say, the cross would have been the next day, and there would have been no need for the rest of the NT, or the Holy Spirit or anything else! Trying to isolate the parts that are less offensive to our lifestyle and our conception of God and ignore the rest is what the Pharisees and Saducees did. Even the most revered verse on God's love had a limiting factor in it--it is not just "whosoever," it is "whosoever BELIEVETH in HIM."

 

[Hardsheller]

David,

Your profile indicates that you are an attorney. As an attorney you deal with the facts and nothing but the facts pertaining to the cases that you are involved in. Hearsay is not permitted in testimony.

The following facts come straight from the book of Kirby Godsey. I did not copy them from some web site or from some state paper. I underlined all of them as I read his book in 1997.

These 20 quotes point out the problem that I and many other Baptists have with Dr. Godsey's theology.

The Facts – Not Hearsay, from the Book “When We Talk About God – Let’s Be Honest” by Kirby Godsey

1. There are no right theologies. Page 16
2. Doctrinal Soundness is arrogant theological nonsense. Page 17
3. In the world of religious faith, we will have to learn that no one has final answers. P 47
4. The simple identification of the Word of God with the Bible is a grave mistake. P 50
5. Believing the bible is not the goal of faith, and it certainly should not be made a test of faith. P 50
6. To ascribe infallibility to the written words of the Bible is wrong. P 51
7. That we are born of God provides the foundation for affirming that people are essentially good. P 83
8. At the wellspring of their life, people are good even when they do evil. P 83
9. God does not abolish evil and sufferin gbecause God cannot abolish evil and suffering. P99
10. Our faith does not claim that Jesus has either said something or done something that you and I must accept or reject. P 119
11. It’s status (the virgin birth) as an actual historical fact is unimportant. P120
12. The crucifixion is not the saving act of God. P124
13. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Word of God. P128
14. Each of us is God incarnate. P 131
15. Is Jesus God’s only Word? The simple answer is “of course not.” P 133
16. Atonement is something God does within us. P 142
17. Jesus did not come to tell us how to be saved. Jesus came to tell us that we are saved. P 144
18. No local church in history can claim to be the true “called ones of God.” P 181
19. Speaking plainly, heaven and hell are not places in space. P199
20. Universalism has a very high view of God…..God will never closer the door..Universalism contends that God never give up on creation. P202

Does Dr. Godsey have the right to write and publish his views? Of course.

Does he have the right to lead a Baptist University? Yes, if the trustees permit it.

Do Baptists have the right to criticize his theology and call for his removal as President of Mercer? Yes.

Do Baptist have the right to refer to his theology as unorthodox? Yes.

Do Baptist have the right to refer to his theology as heretical? Yes.

When you consider the facts from his book. Dr. Godsey is clearly outside the boundaries of traditional and historical Southern Baptist Doctrine.