Should a Deacon

[Sapper Woody]

And filing bankrupcy (IMO) is taking the easy way out.

That's fine. Should you ever find yourself having to face the prospect of bankruptcy..., get back up with me then to explain your position.

See my original post here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1764826&postcount=8

Since you obviously didn't read it, I will summarize here:

I have faced the prospect of bankrupcy. But I didn't take it. I worked for 5 years going with the bare necessities to get out of debt. I went to Christian Credit Counseling, and through them got my interest rates stopped/lowered on my credit cards. I understood then what I still understand. That when you owe people money, whether it is your fault or not, to not give it to them is stealing. "The borrower is servant to the lender"

 

[HAMel]

I worked for 5 years going with the bare necessities to get out of debt.
Read your own words. Bottom line is..., you were able to work yourself out of debt. Way too many people ARE NOT ABLE. You're young. Many people are old.

 

[Arbo]

Could it be said that being financially responsible is part of ruling one's house well, as it pertains to the qualifications of a pastor or a deacon? If so, could bankruptcy be a disqualifer?

(Not directed at anyone. Just tossing it out there.)

 

[Zenas]

Could it be said that being financially responsible is part of ruling one's house well, as it pertains to the qualifications of a pastor or a deacon? If so, could bankruptcy be a disqualifer?

(Not directed at anyone. Just tossing it out there.)

Are these things disqualifiers?

1. You're driving, have a seizure, drift into oncoming traffic and kill two or three people. The veridict against you is $5,000,000 and you have $500,000 coverage. Your only asset is a house with a mortgage.

2. You need bypass heart surgery and have no health insurance. The surgery costs $100,000 and your income is $25,000 per year.

3. You have a furniture store next to an Army base. The base closes and you have to close your store due to lack of business. After selling everything, you still owe your creditors $200,000, and you are now driving 100 miles per day to work at a $15.00 per hour job.

All these things, and more, will give rise to a bankruptcy.

If these things are disqualifiers, we are saying that only financially successful people are fit for positions of church leadership. My bible doesn't say that.

 

[freeatlast]

Are these things disqualifiers?

1. You're driving, have a seizure, drift into oncoming traffic and kill two or three people. The veridict against you is $5,000,000 and you have $500,000 coverage. Your only asset is a house with a mortgage.

2. You need bypass heart surgery and have no health insurance. The surgery costs $100,000 and your income is $25,000 per year.

3. You have a furniture store next to an Army base. The base closes and you have to close your store due to lack of business. After selling everything, you still owe your creditors $200,000, and you are now driving 100 miles per day to work at a $15.00 per hour job.

All these things, and more, will give rise to a bankruptcy.

If these things are disqualifiers, we are saying that only financially successful people are fit for positions of church leadership. My bible doesn't say that.

The first two are not your fault. The third one is. The person did not have to take out the line of credit.

 

[Amy.G]

Seven people who faced bankruptcy:

Abraham Lincoln

Henry Ford

Walt Disney

Milton Hershey

Burt Reynolds

H.J. Heinz

P.T. Barnum

Source

 

[freeatlast]

Seven people who faced bankruptcy:

Abraham Lincoln

Henry Ford

Walt Disney

Milton Hershey

Burt Reynolds

H.J. Heinz

P.T. Barnum

Source

And that means what in regards to the OP?

 

[Arbo]

Are these things disqualifiers?

1. You're driving, have a seizure, drift into oncoming traffic and kill two or three people. The veridict against you is $5,000,000 and you have $500,000 coverage. Your only asset is a house with a mortgage.

2. You need bypass heart surgery and have no health insurance. The surgery costs $100,000 and your income is $25,000 per year.

3. You have a furniture store next to an Army base. The base closes and you have to close your store due to lack of business. After selling everything, you still owe your creditors $200,000, and you are now driving 100 miles per day to work at a $15.00 per hour job.

All these things, and more, will give rise to a bankruptcy.

If these things are disqualifiers, we are saying that only financially successful people are fit for positions of church leadership. My bible doesn't say that.

I'm not going to argue about specific causes. The question I posed was that if financial responsibility could be considered part of ruling one's house well, and if bankruptcy indicated a deficiency in that area.

 

[Arbo]

Seven people who faced bankruptcy:

Abraham Lincoln

Henry Ford

Walt Disney

Milton Hershey

Burt Reynolds

H.J. Heinz

P.T. Barnum

Source

Were any of them deacons?

 

[Amy.G]

And that means what in regards to the OP?

There have been many well respected and decent people who have gone bankrupt. It doesn't mean they are unable to handle their money.
As far as being a deacon goes, the circumstances need to be looked at before a decision is made on their qualifications.

 

[freeatlast]

There have been many well respected and decent people who have gone bankrupt. It doesn't mean they are unable to handle their money.
As far as being a deacon goes, the circumstances need to be looked at before a decision is made on their qualifications.

Actually it usually does mean they did not handle their finances properly. Being well respected and decent does not constitute financial wisdom.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Isn't there a story someplace about walking a mile in another man's moccasins before you judge him?

I've never had to file for bankruptcy, but I've come close. Close enough. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

I think it should be between the deacon, his pastor and his church.

 

[HAMel]

Should a deacon be booted out because his adult daughter comes home pregnant three times over?

Or, because his brother was arrested for shoplifting?

How about his wife having a mental breakdown?

I'd say that any deacon who had been arrested for something, lets say, like being arrested for fighting 50 years ago before he came to know the Lord.

Yes indeed. That would be the final blow.

 

[Arbo]

Should a deacon be booted out because his adult daughter comes home pregnant three times over?

Or, because his brother was arrested for shoplifting?

How about his wife having a mental breakdown?

I'd say that any deacon who had been arrested for something, lets say, like being arrested for fighting 50 years ago before he came to know the Lord.

Yes indeed. That would be the final blow.

How do these examples relate to the topic at hand?

 

[Zenas]

The first two are not your fault. The third one is. The person did not have to take out the line of credit.

OK, so you would disqualify anyone who has debt? You are going to have a mighty narrow slate from which to choose your deacons. I agree that becoming and remaining debt free is laudable goal but surely it can't be a disqualifier for being a deacon.

 

[freeatlast]

OK, so you would disqualify anyone who has debt? You are going to have a mighty narrow slate from which to choose your deacons. I agree that becoming and remaining debt free is laudable goal but surely it can't be a disqualifier for being a deacon.

You must have had sand in your eyes when you read my response. I never said anything you said.

 

[Zenas]

I'm not going to argue about specific causes. The question I posed was that if financial responsibility could be considered part of ruling one's house well, and if bankruptcy indicated a deficiency in that area.

The thing is that specific causes have to be looked at. Your premise is fine. Financial responsibility is a factor to be considered in whether a man rules his house well. But about half of personal bankruptcies and nearly all business bankruptcies come about because of circumstances beyond the debtor's control.

 

[Zenas]

You must have had sand in your eyes when you read my response. I never said anything you said.

No but you certainly implied it.

 

[Arbo]

The thing is that specific causes have to be looked at. Your premise is fine. Financial responsibility is a factor to be considered in whether a man rules his house well. But about half of personal bankruptcies and nearly all business bankruptcies come about because of circumstances beyond the debtor's control.

No doubt it seems reasonable to look at the specific case in question. I wouldn't contest the argument that some are victims of circumstances beyond their control, but I do wonder how many cases that are claimed to be such could have been avoided by a measure of prudence.

In my mind, financial prudence and planning for the unforseens in life are parts of ruling a house well.

 

[Amy.G]

Actually it usually does mean they did not handle their finances properly. Being well respected and decent does not constitute financial wisdom.

No. You can't say "usually". My husband and I came within a hair of filing bankruptcy. We owned a business for 5 years that because of the housing industry going belly up, our business failed. It wasn't because of improper management. We worked with a lawyer and our bank for over a year. We owed NOTHING other than the business loan and a little on our house. We were advised by the bank to sell our house and pay down the debt on the business, which we did, and the bank released the house from the business loan. We sold almost all of our personal property and kept only the dollar amount allowed by the courts. The business property (18 acres of land) went into foreclosure and was auctioned off at the courthouse. We were told it did not sell.
Just a day or so before we filed with the court, we learned that the bank had sold our mortgage long before and had to buy it back. Our attorney advised us to make an offer of a cash settlement in order to be released from all liability and debt. We did and the bank accepted. We are now free of a huuuge debt we could not pay. But even if we had filed bankruptcy, the bank got 5 years of interest plus the property. We owed nothing on credit cards, dr. bills or anything.

So don't be so quick to judge others. Not everyone who files bankruptcy is an irresponsible crook.

BTW, there is NO doubt in my mind that God worked all that out. It still blows my mind!