Should a Divorced Woman hold office in a church?

B in R, You obviously don't understand the biblical principle of consequence. Divorce is an issue that only becomes a problem when one prefers not to believe in consequences for sins. I have stated that the sin is forgiven, consequence remains.

The Bible is clear in that it teaches from truth, not emotion. A person can council from the Bible, and does not need to have experience to do so. A pastor does not need to be an former alcoholic to council the alcoholic. Same for the addict, and the future bride. All he needs is his Bible. All they need is Christ. You are looking at these issues from a worlds point of view.

Divorce is only prevelent in the churches because Christians have fallen so far from the standards God has given. Divorce was given because of the hardness of the hearts of the people. Why is it that there are those who don't opt for divorce? Not because their marriage was easy, or because they found the right mate. It's because they didn't allow divorce to be part of their vocabulary. By the words you have used to be given as council (the "inset here" part), you have just told someone that they always have a way out. What will she do if she sees these signs and needs to correct it? You may have the answer...divorce ?

I believe the distruction doesn't come with denying these people leadership, but it comes when they are in leadership. But I do see why this is a point of contention for you.

 

I agree with theolivebranch....

Noone says these people are condemned to hell....I believe in true forgiveness...there is forgiveness in Christ,but that does not mean that people can not disqualify themselves from certain things because they choose to sin. We are no longer slaves to sin,but we choose to sin.

I think those who are qualified to counsel are those who are living according to the Word of God and have made committments to live for Christ. They,also must know what the Word of God teaches. They do not have to experience the sin to know how to teach someone the Bible....that is absurd.

The original question was can these women fill a role in the church leadership...my answer remains no. There are other ways for these believing women to serve the body.

 

Since the pastor is going to be a pastor for both men and women, why wouldn't you want them on the committee to help choose the pastor? Also in most baptist churches the committees and officers are voted in by the whole church body, so if the entire church body doesn't have a problem....
Any person considered for any position should meet a maturity factor not a gender requirement. There are many christians that have been so for many years that I wouldn't let teach because of a lack of spiritual maturity.

 

go2church,

Adam was not deceived, but the woman. Woman are emotional, by nature, and think with their heart instead of their head. The authority in a church is given in a perfect order. God , man, woman. Let the men do the choosing, the woman can vote. It just works better when God's plan is followed. I think that's why diane has brought up this subject. She does seem to be questioning this woman's Credibility to hold this position. This is a question on her mind that shows a lack of unanimity in the congregation. Maybe this woman wouldn't make a right decision.

I still don't understand the purpose of a pulpit search committee. What is the biblical basis for this? Can't the Lord bring in the right pastor for the position? I thought the man that is candidating was to present himself before the congregation. Is this a practice of the SBC's or do other Baptists practice this?

 

I would say that you "obviously" don't understand the Biblical Principle of forgiveness.

No, you take it a step further and claim that consequence excludes.....

Again, please provide the Scripture that supports the doctrine of exclusion.
I never said that they couldn't counsel them (as you are attempting to represent), I simply pointed out that you said that a divorced woman could not counsel anyone.

This is not true. This happens in churches EVERYWHERE.

Please provide the quote where I said this.
I have never condoned divorce as an answer, and I challenge you to show that I did.

I did, however, state that divorced people are forgiven, and loved.

 

Perhaps you can provide the Scripture for this position.....

 

Baptist,

Reread my posts. Consequences of divorce is exclusion. It is not a doctrine, but a biblical principle. Counseling is best done from the Bible, not experience. Divorce in churches is everywhere, and Christians have fallen far from God and His Holiness.

Divorce occurs after the fact. If you tell someone that they are marrying a potential for divorce, you are forseeing the future in your experience, not how she can handle a problem. You cannot honestly tell someone that their choice is wrong because your choice was wrong. i don't see where your suggestion can be helpful. Your actions during your marriage will be a major impact on how your spouse reacts. So, unless you have identical problems, with identical personalities, you're are giving bad counsel.

I also stated that divorced people are forgiven, but I failed to say "loved", which they are. When a person is denied a leadership position because of the consequence of divorce, I am saying it for the love of the rest of the congregation, too.

 

OK, now I see. Kick me for never being in a very large church. I can see why you need the committee

 

I did read them, and once more I am asking you for the Scriptural Passage(s) to support the doctrine of exclusion. This time you specified that exclusion is Biblical, so it is up to you to provide the proof.

 

Olive,
Obviously I wouldn't agree with you, no real reason to beat that dead horse. There have been women on the pulpit committees that have considered me in each and every case, in fact I would be "curious" if there weren't.
Concerning the role of the pulpit committee, there isn't any hard and fast way to find a pastor, but most churches have a functioning committee even if they don't call it a committee. Somebody has to filter through the resumes and do all the leg work or the process would take forever. Normally the pulpit committee only makes a recommendation and the church has to actually have a vote to "call" the recommended person to the be the pastor.

How does your church find a pastor if not through a process similar to the one I described?

 

I am in a fairly large church and we do not use a pastor search team(my husband served on one when we were in a larger SBC church-so I am VERY familiar with it)

The church we are in has a plurality of elders(compensated and non compensated)...they meet the biblical qualifications for eldership and make all the decisions for our body...they are the most spiritually mature and they make the spiritual decisions for the less mature....no where does the bible promote congrgational rule or voting so that everyone's voice is heard....if there was a position that needed filling in our church,these men would be the ones to fill it. Our body,in response,would be happy to meet whom they have chosen. I believe God set up leadership in the church for this purpose...and it makes touchy situations go so much smoother.

This is one reason why I believe women should not be involved in this major church decision,divorced or not. The spiritually mature men(elders) or mature lay men should be in this process.

We,also,have deacons who handle finances,widows,service type ministries.(you know,like it was established in the NT). They are servants,who work as the elders see a need.(Or even when they don't)

Molly

 

While divorce is often the reslt of sin, it is not always the result of the sin of the divorcee. My own marriage ended when my ex wife committed adultery. She ultimately chose divorce. I am divorced, yet I did not sin. I was the victim of sin. I did not divorce my wife, she divorced me.

 

I do have Biblical support for the principles of consequence, including why a divorced person should not be in a leadership position, which I will get to, eventually. Please stop calling it a doctrine.

Can you provide for me biblical support for a woman to be in a leadership position? Next, if you or your church practice allowing women into leadership positions, what would you do if you found this to be biblically wrong?

I also find your assesment of what a person can do, if found ineligible for leadership positions, to be rattling and eeking of pride. Why do we assume that leadership is so high in reward, yet to clean the church so trivial? Should one who cannot be in the leadership position not find themselves content in whatsoever state they are in? Should that person not regard himself but dung before Christ, and not worthy of anything more than the lowest position? We should be honored that we can do work for Christ, no matter what it may be. Why need to lead? There is an honor much greater than being a leader, and that is to give the Gospel of Christ to the lost. This should be your concern, which any divorced person can be part of.

 

To TheOliveBranch:

I had initially crafted a response to your post; however, I have decided to reduce it to a few simple statements.

1, With your request to stop using the word “doctrine:” The term is synonymous with principle, which, you will recall, was your word. You are more than welcome to verify the validity of this if you so desire.

2. To answer your question: Yes, my church does have women that are ministers. Since you will undoubtedly invoke the Apostle Paul, note that I said “ministers” and not “pastors.” We do not have women that preach, but we do have women on staff who minister to the needs of the Congregation. Until someone can prove to me that this is “Biblically wrong,” then I have no problem whatsoever with their service. They exude the Love of God, and God has blessed them. I fail to see why you chose to ask this question instead of providing the Scripture to mandate the "principle of exclusion."

3. As for your contention that I am “eeking” of pride, I do not respond to egregious contumely. Please consult Proverbs 19:9.

I have asked you on several occasions to provide Scriptural Support for the statements that you have made that extol a “principle of exclusion.” You have failed to do this. In your last post, you stated that this was Biblical, so this should not be such a daunting task.

Alas, thou hast failed to provide the Scripture to support thy argument.

 

From the creation of Adam and Eve, God has given the institution of marriage [Gen 2:24]. Through the Law, he gave man laws to follow in a marriage. But through the hardness of their hearts, he gave them divorce[Ma 19:8-9]. God declares a marriage as one flesh, and that no man should put it asunder, or tear it apart [Ma 19:6]. There is a list of things that God hates, one of which is divorce [Mal 2:16]. This statement was directed at the priests, the spiritual leaders who were to be especially careful in their marriages [Lev 21:8-15]. And when God hates something, it should not be looked upon lightly. He forgives, but there are consequences[Gal 6:7-8].

Consequences are something that we need to accept for doing things in the flesh. The priests of the OT were considered defiled and profane if their wife was not pure. The priests were cursed by God in Malachi because of divorce. But it goes even further. Marriage is a vow taken before God. A promise of a life commitment. We expect the Lord to forgive us, but in divorce, where is forgiveness?

When divorce occurs, children are hurt, finances are consumed, emotions are stripped, and the relationship really never ends. God does not lie when he states that the two were one flesh and divorce is the flesh torn apart.

Decisions are our responsibility. We have been given a free will, so it is our duty to make choices. We are pleased when we make right choices, but we also are responsible for the wrong ones. In other wrong choices, such as lying, stubbornness, pride, idolatry, adultery, etc.[Gal 5:19-21], God said those that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Eph 5 tells us that the wrath of God will come upon them, as does Col 3. Consequences are to be expected. In these lists, how many of the sins are directly connected to divorce?

Taking this further, there are no instances of women in leadership positions in the church. Bring Deborah into this, and you bring OT laws in. What NT positions are leadership? Bishops and deacons. All others are not biblical, they are man-made. So, the only positions to look at in the NT is those two listed in 1Tim and Titus. Bishops are to be blameless..., one that ruleth his house well, because he must do this or he will not rule the church well [consequence]. He must also have a good report from the world, or he's open to reproach and the snare of the devil. Children must be in order, also, faithful, not unruly. Deacons have to prove themselves, along with their wives having a list of things to follow. They are a special sort of people, those called into the ministry. If churches would only hold very high standards and be very cautious with whom they decide to lead, there would be less problems in the churches. But to put a divorced person in the leadership is playing with fire. If that person couldn't see what kind of person they were marrying, how would they see trouble, sin, or problems?

Now, as for you calling me a liar, I really don't need to be concerned with Pro 19:9. But I think maybe you should ponder over 1Tim 4:1-2, and 2Tim 3:1-9 as I turn away.

 

To TheOliveBranch:
This was the much-anticipated Biblical Justification for your statement?

Here is your quote once again:

Notwithstanding the fact that these two words are synonymous, let me remind you that specific statements offered up as "principle" need specific Scriptural Support.

Well, let’s see:

Gen 2:24: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”
Ma 19:8-9: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”
Ma 19:6: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”
Mal 2:16: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”
Gal 6:7-8: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”
Gal 5:19-21: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”
Eph 5: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion” (unless you are implying that all divorced Believers have lost their salvation)
Col 3: nothing to support your contention that the “Consequences of divorce is exclusion”

First you accused me of pride, which is indeed false witness. Now you give me verses that imply that I am guilty of apostasy. With every post, you become more and more acerbic. Perhaps you should think about that.......

[Edited to correct spelling]

 

BIR (Baptist in Richmond),

Such the fiesty one, aren't you! You dazzle me with your fancy printing!

But really! I just looked up the verses in question, and did find them to point to, and define the principles of consequenses, but not only that, you can also apply these verses to the over laying consequenses of sin in general.

One thing I do differ with Olive about, is that Deborah was a Prophetess, with a male by her side, and what I gather from Scripture, was because there was not a Prophet to do the Lord's will at that time. To shame on us men. (I quess that would be a consequense). And much the same as today in some churches where the women want to run things!

OH! WAIT A MINUTE!!!! What would be the consequenses of women running things in the church???

A break down of Scriptural male authority. Women would be teaching their daughters that it is OK to run the household, the church, their husbands, and even be saying to God, that His way wasn't right!!! CONSEQUENSES!!!!

And then add women who are from BROKEN HOMES!!! OH! I guess that that would bring a whole other set of consequenses about. Like now you would be teaching your daughters that not only is it OK the run the church, but it doesn't make any difference if you want to get a divorice or divorices to get what you want.

Or, maybe this is the way it's suppose to be, and there are no CONSEQUENSES to worry about!

After all, God forgives everything. Even the consequenses?

 

To Justified:

Feisty? According to TheOliveBranch, my sin is apostasy.
Should I perceive your second sentence as congenial or acrimonious?

Perhaps you are ignoring the fact that I never claimed that there aren’t consequences to sin. Once more, let me repeat the statement made by TheOliveBranch that is the point of contention:

I maintain that this is not Scriptural and the evidence provided in the last post does not bestow any evidence to refute this. As these Scriptural Passages demonstrate, there are indeed consequences to sin. But there is nothing presented to suggest that exclusion of a divorced Believer is a “doctrine,” “principle,” “canon,” “axiom,” <insert your favorite synonym here>.

Running things in the church? Perhaps your Congregation differs from ours, as Sunday School teachers and counselors do not run things in our Church. The Pastor runs our Church. [Actually, the Pastor, who is assisted by the Associate Pastor and the Deacons.]

Once again, this was a statement that was never made……

I am now curious - consider this scenario:
A wife has a husband that has a drinking problem and is verbally abusive. The wife has tried to get the husband to go to counseling, but the husband is adamant in his refusal. After exhausting all possible alternatives, the wife gives the husband an ultimatum: You must choose me or the alcohol. The husband chooses alcohol. What would be your advice?

 

I am now curious - consider this scenario:
A wife has a husband that has a drinking problem and is verbally abusive. The wife has tried to get the husband to go to counseling, but the husband is adamant in his refusal. After exhausting all possible alternatives, the wife gives the husband an ultimatum: You must choose me or the alcohol. The husband chooses alcohol. What would be your advice?


BIR,

It is quite simple. First of all, the wife has no business giving her husband an ultimatum!

The wife is to be in prayer and in the Word continually. After all, God does not give us more then we can bare, it is only us that decide He has!

But, most of all, don't take matters into your own hand!