Should Baptist (in general) Shun Westboro???

[Amy.G]

They certainly need prayer and even discipline and any number of believers can carry that out as long as there are two or three.

How would you suggest they be disciplined? They aren't going to discipline themselves and members from another church cannot discipline them. We have no authority to ex-communicate them from their own church.

 

[dh1948]

This is what we need to do but I must confess I'm going to have to pray for God to convict me to feel this way and act this way. It's tough not to get angry and I just have to constantly remember James 1:19,20

I have no mercy on, or sympathy for, this clan. Sorry. Brand me whatever you wish.

 

[CF1]

How would you suggest they be disciplined? They aren't going to discipline themselves and members from another church cannot discipline them. We have no authority to ex-communicate them from their own church.

Wikipedia says Jerry Falwell renounced them and called the leader a "first class nut".

So they picketed Jerry Falwell's funeral.

Only God can control them. Fortunately God is in control.

 

[freeatlast]

How would you suggest they be disciplined? They aren't going to discipline themselves and members from another church cannot discipline them. We have no authority to ex-communicate them from their own church.

Amy we have a biblical mandate in Matt 18:15-20. The church is not any denomination. The church is present when any two people gather to carry out the Lord's business. Any church can discipline any believer any place and any time if need be.
They do not have to be members of our denomination or any denomination. They simply have to claim to be Christians. If found guilty and they would not listen they could be put out of the church. or be turned over to satan. Putting them out does not mean they would leave the church they attend. it means that they would no longer be under the protection of the body no matter where they attend. The church has great authority and seldom acts on it.

 

[rbell]

Amy we have a biblical mandate in Matt 18:15-20. The church is not any denomination. The church is present when any two people gather to carry out the Lord's business. Any church can discipline any believer any place and any time if need be.
They do not have to be members of our denomination or any denomination. They simply have to claim to be Christians. If found guilty and they would not listen they could be put out of the church. or be turned over to satan. Putting them out does not mean they would leave the church they attend. it means that they would no longer be under the protection of the body no matter where they attend. The church has great authority and seldom acts on it.

Not sure how this can be done with regards to local church autonomy.

You can't "put them out" of something they're not in to begin with...

 

[quantumfaith]

They are pretty much a cult. They are using the name of Jesus to further their own agenda.

If memory serves me correctly, they are essentially and primarily a "family" church. Made up of members related to one another. Seems I remember coming across that factoid somewhere, "but I could be wrong".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The following is copied from the Westboro Baptist Church Website:

Established in 1955 by Pastor Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) of Topeka, Kansas still exists today as an Old School (or, Primitive) Baptist Church. We adhere to the teachings of the Bible, preach against all form of sin (e.g., fornication, adultery [including divorce and remarriage], sodomy), and insist that the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace be taught and expounded publicly to all men. These doctrines of grace were well summed up by John Calvin in his 5 points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Although these doctrines are almost universally hated today, they were once loved and believed. Even though the Arminian lies that "God loves everyone" and "Jesus died for everyone" are being taught from nearly every pulpit in this generation, this hasn't always been the case. If you are in a church that supposedly believes the Bible, and you are hearing these lies, then your church doesn't teach what the Bible teaches. If you care about your never-dying soul, you will carefully read every word of this web site, along with the entire Bible.​

Just out & out Bizarre hateful individuals.....Hate is there real gospel, not Christianity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If memory serves me correctly, they are essentially and primarily a "family" church. Made up of members related to one another. Seems I remember coming across that factoid somewhere, "but I could be wrong".

You are correct....are you perhaps suggesting the insanity is primarily genetic? LOL

 

[freeatlast]

Not sure how this can be done with regards to local church autonomy.

You can't "put them out" of something they're not in to begin with...

Follow scripture. Contact them one on one with the complaint in love. if they will not hear take two or three witness and so on as scripture says. because of the distance or if they refuse to have a conversation i believe email, or postal mail is acceptable, even by phone as long as the spirit of the command is not violated.

 

[glfredrick]

If memory serves me correctly, they are essentially and primarily a "family" church. Made up of members related to one another. Seems I remember coming across that factoid somewhere, "but I could be wrong".

All 70 of them...

I can't even access their web page from my seminary computer. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[dh1948]

Amy we have a biblical mandate in Matt 18:15-20. The church is not any denomination. The church is present when any two people gather to carry out the Lord's business. Any church can discipline any believer any place and any time if need be.
They do not have to be members of our denomination or any denomination. They simply have to claim to be Christians. If found guilty and they would not listen they could be put out of the church. or be turned over to satan. Putting them out does not mean they would leave the church they attend. it means that they would no longer be under the protection of the body no matter where they attend. The church has great authority and seldom acts on it.

What an unusual application of text. Completely wipes out the autonomy of the local church. To be consistent with your application, you would have to agree that any gathering of two or more Christians could call itself into a "business session" and negate any decision made by a local church.

I think you are off base here, my friend.

 

[rbell]

Follow scripture. Contact them one on one with the complaint in love. if they will not hear take two or three witness and so on as scripture says. because of the distance or if they refuse to have a conversation i believe email, or postal mail is acceptable, even by phone as long as the spirit of the command is not violated.

What an unusual application of text. Completely wipes out the autonomy of the local church. To be consistent with your application, you would have to agree that any gathering of two or more Christians could call itself into a "business session" and negate any decision made by a local church.

I think you are off base here, my friend.

I agree. Autonomy of local church makes church discipline a local church issue.

Now...I'm not saying that churches can't decide to not associate/fellowship with Westboro. In fact, they shouldn't.

but I think DH's assessment is right.

 

[freeatlast]

What an unusual application of text. Completely wipes out the autonomy of the local church. To be consistent with your application, you would have to agree that any gathering of two or more Christians could call itself into a "business session" and negate any decision made by a local church.

I think you are off base here, my friend.

What I said was where two or three are gathered to do the Lord's business. Just because believers gather they are not always gathering to do His business. And if they gather with improper intent the Lord would not be in their mist. If two or three purposely gathered to take to hand the business of dealing with the problem we have been speaking about then I contend that the Lord is in their mist based on scripture.
As far as local church autonomy I think it has went so far that it many times negates the true church authority. if you notice in scripture in Matt. about discipline there is no such thing as church autonomy. Any and all with the correct motives and proper obedience to scripture are covered and blessed by the Lord. I don't believe that we have a safe haven if we sin because we are not part of a local church. I believe that the discipline can and should cross church domains.

 

[rbell]

As far as local church autonomy I think it has went so far that it many times negates the true church authority. if you notice in scripture in Matt. about discipline there is no such thing as church autonomy.

That almost sounds Catholic.

You can't excise Matthew and leave out Scripture that does support/address local church autonomy.

 

[freeatlast]

That almost sounds Catholic.

You can't excise Matthew and leave out Scripture that does support/address local church autonomy.

give me some scripture that teaches church autonomy that allows safe havens for sin.

 

[CF1]

What is so unusual about Westboro is their intentions to truly cause pain to others while they are already hurting with grief. Prophets can prophecy and cry out for change, but to do so when people are greiving at a funeral is so hurtful and will not lead to healing but to deep alienation. One looks at that and says they must are hurting, unforgiving people who are taking out their own past and pride on others. May God have mercy on them to heal their own hurts first, before considering themselves ready to help the world.

Are there other examples of local autonomous churches that have called themselves "Baptist" but have intentionally and consistently hurt others in a way that has attracted this much attention?

I can think of cults, like Jim Jones, but don't remember any that called themselves Baptist.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that we should never be so isolated from other Christians that can hold us accountable to reasonableness.

 

[shodan]

As much harm as that church does we need to be somewhat careful. As wrong as there methods and theology are, not everything they say is wrong....

And not everything that Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness was wrong...

 

[mets65]

What is so unusual about Westboro is their intentions to truly cause pain to others while they are already hurting with grief. Prophets can prophecy and cry out for change, but to do so when people are greiving at a funeral is so hurtful and will not lead to healing but to deep alienation. One looks at that and says they must are hurting, unforgiving people who are taking out their own past and pride on others. May God have mercy on them to heal their own hurts first, before considering themselves ready to help the world.

Are there other examples of local autonomous churches that have called themselves "Baptist" but have intentionally and consistently hurt others in a way that has attracted this much attention?

I can think of cults, like Jim Jones, but don't remember any that called themselves Baptist.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that we should never be so isolated from other Christians that can hold us accountable to reasonableness.

Well there always has to be a first time.

 

[calvin]

does their message conform to 1st corinthians 13? do they have love? this would be a great test, to see if what they speak is the truth. the truth only is good if it is spoken in love. these folk, are in my estimation are full of hate, and bitterness. sad really. :wavey:

 

[annsni]

does their message conform to 1st corinthians 13? do they have love? this would be a great test, to see if what they speak is the truth. the truth only is good if it is spoken in love. these folk, are in my estimation are full of hate, and bitterness. sad really. :wavey:

VERY hateful. They spew so much hate that I seriously wonder if they are saved. I just can't imagine someone saved by Jesus' precious blood acting the way they do.