Should Christian Schools teach the theory of Evolution?

[Paul from Antioch]

I don't intend to be picky, but I don't understand, Bro. Thomas 15 how your story fits into the narrative of "Should Christian Schools (i.e., Jr High + Sr Hign) Teach the humanist "Theory of Evolution" NOT as an established fact, but so that our college-bound (or otherwise) young folks will at least know what they're facing as they launch out their lives as young adults. Maybe it's just my 75 YO brain at work vainly attempting to comprehend what you may have been referring to as your own personal experience(-ies), but as I understand your post as saying, therefore, that we Shouldn't let our young folks enrolled in Christian day schools anything at all about this rather pervasive & humanistic "Theory of Evolution." If that's what you're implying that we should do for our young folks about to launch their lives in today's society, I'm afraid that I don't understand your motive(s) for so doing so. Again, quite possibly it's just my 75 YO lack of memory showing its nasty presence here, & if that's the case, please forgive this handicapped retired vet. OTHO if it's something else, would you be so kind as to explain the reason(s) for your post? I'm curious to find this out, & most likely there are others who are also curious too. I'm of the opinion that there are some folks who visit the forums/threads here on B B who are just looking for some ammo to use against our young folks to destroy their spiritual lives before our future generation(s) have a fighting chance to edify themselves in what God and His Word has for them to do so. (Again, if I'm not really comprehending your posts, please forgive me.....After all, it's Monday morning, & I haven't yet stumbled around to hopefully find my coffee & cup!! ...... Thank you Brother in Jesus Christ for your understanding>

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Received a liberal arts BS degree in 1981. Then 10 years ago I broke my foot which requited plates, screws and pins to fix. While I was recovering I decided to do something that I had been thinking about for a long time, that is take a college level algebra class.

Enrolled in my local community college, took algebra 101. Then 102 and 201, then stats and pre-calc. All in the evening after work and solely for personal enrichment. After that I took Gen Chem 1&2, O-Chem 1&2, Biology 1&2, Micro and botany. At age 60 I was awarded a BIO-AS. Personal enrichment.

One of the reasons was to learn what I could about what is being taught at the undergrad level in biology and evolution. Bio 2 is about 90% evolution. My prof for that class, a big fan of Darwin, offered to give me a letter of recommendation to a State Univ. He couldn't believe it when I told him I was a young earth creationist.

My point. Learning the modern evolutionist theory didn't do anything to me other than enforce my faith in the Genesis account. Evolution has many holes and still doesn't work without some sort of outside force which the evolutionists claims doesn't exist. Dr. Whitcomb got it right 60+ years ago, the modern scientist, while brilliant, is a priest to the god of time through chance.

So the professor didn’t challenge or ridicule anyone’s beliefs in class. That’s good to know. Many fear there will be intimidation and the possibility of a lowered grade.

 

[thomas15]

The prof I had for micro was a bit of a SJW but none of them were openly dismissive of the Genesis account. In their personal life I'm sure they think it funny thought.

My point is that for all the time spent on evolution it didn't convince me to abandon my faith in the Bible account of things. Even the evolutionist and the carbon dating experts will admit there are problems with the "science". An example is found in most basic college level chemistry textbooks where they discuss the use of MTBEs in gasoline a few decades ago and how it caused problems worse than the problem it was intended to remedy.

Still, as Bible believing Christians we need to know what they know in addition to having a firm foundation in the Scriptures. The bigger problem facing believers in my judgement is not what the sciences teach but what we believe and our willingness to make it known what we believe. Evolution is not going anywhere soon so we should have an understanding of it. Most non-believing laymen who know nothing about the Bible also know nothing about evolution.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

So, what exactly are you trying to tell us about whether or not Christian schools (Particularly at the Jr High & Senior High grade levels) should or should not teach about the humanistic theory that currently seems to permeate most of the colleges & universities today? Are you implying that Christian day schools, especially in the Jr High & Senior High grade levels should NOT expose its/their students to the dangers of this humanistic philosophy which implies that God was NOT our Creator & therefor if people act like the animals they, in reality are, there will be absolutely no consequence(s) for them, both in this life & the life to come? Please supply your Biblical reasons for what seems to be at opposite poles to my understanding, limited as I'll admit it is, of what God's Word tells me/us. Thanks in advance for your input on this issue!!!

 

[Paul from Antioch]

So, what exactly are you trying to tell us about whether or not Christian schools (Particularly at the Jr High & Senior High grade level) should or should not teach about the humanistic theory that currently seems to permeate most of the colleges & universities today? Are you implying that Christian day schools, especially in the Jr High & Senior High grade levels, should NOT expose its/their students to the dangers of this humanistic philosophy which implies that God was NOT our Creator & therefore if people act like the animals they, in reality are, there will be absolutely no consequence(s) for them, both in this life & the life to come? Please supply your Biblical reasons for what seems to be at opposite poles to my understanding, limited as I'll admit it is, of what God's Word tells me/us. Thanks in advance for your input on this issue!!!

 

[thomas15]

What I'm saying Paul is evolution is there and if a young believer doesn't have at least a cursory grasp of it they will be humiliated in any kind of discussion with their non-believing peers. So how much data and how it is presented I don't really know but I think it a mistake to pretend it isn't out there. I'm also saying that my faith survived an undergrad experience in evolution thinking and I don't think I'm special.

One other point I touched on is that most non-believers (adults) who have little background in the natural sciences at a college level, your typical middle age HS graduate who is certain that evolution is true doesn't know what evolution actually teaches. What they do is think because scientists believe it it must be true. So, Christian education should include critical thinking skills instead of herd knowledge. Critical thinking will allow school age students to think through the theories and make informed decisions. Everyone knows that covid-19 is a virus, the media talks about it every day. Ask 25 adults who go around wearing a mask and live in fear of the thing to give you a definition of a virus. One of the 25 might answer the question properly.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

What I'm saying Paul is evolution is there and if a young believer doesn't have at least a cursory grasp of it they will be humiliated in any kind of discussion with their non-believing peers. So how much data and how it is presented I don't really know but I think it a mistake to pretend it isn't out there. I'm also saying that my faith survived an undergrad experience in evolution thinking and I don't think I'm special.

One other point I touched on is that most non-believers (adults) who have little background in the natural sciences at a college level, your typical middle age HS graduate who is certain that evolution is true doesn't know what evolution actually teaches. What they do is think because scientists believe it it must be true. So, Christian education should include critical thinking skills instead of herd knowledge. Critical thinking will allow school age students to think through the theories and make informed decisions. Everyone knows that covid-19 is a virus, the media talks about it every day. Ask 25 adults who go around wearing a mask and live in fear of the thing to give you a definition of a virus. One of the 25 might answer the question properly.

I understand your particular point of view, OTOH, I am asking you (or anyone else for that matter) should NOT a Christian Day School (especially for families having either/or Jr High &/or Senior High School students of a family who just recently trusted Jesus as their Savior NOT instruct its students to be aware of the permeation of thus humanist based concept that (1) There is NO GOD, & (2) Since there is no God, all humans should always act as the animals which they are & therefore will suffer absolutely NO consequences of their actions, either in this present life or the life to come (If there IS a life to come!)??

 

[timtofly]

It is just not the origin of man that is suspect. The whole paradigm of science is not based on Scripture. Science has been flawed since 500 BC. We know evolution works. Jacob used it to his advantage to take the fittest livestock away from his deceptive father in law. The sons of God were able to change the size of humans. There is more in Scripture about evolution than any other aspect of science. The shape and size of the universe has been observed wrongly after Satan influenced human thought to change from God's Word to the current model.

No way the church can retract hundreds of years of false science. It is the church that convinced the world to get to this point. At least, lies snuck into the church, and instead of the church holding firm, it caved. Science can only speculate on what the brain thinks it can observe. Yes even the strictest observation has to rely on speculation. The point of 2 Peter 3, rings loud and clear, that we think all things remain the same since the very beginning. That is the basis of change, ie evolution that there cannot be change of the Godly type. Since God has made changes, nothing is the same since the beginning, thus evolution is skewered, skewed, and totally unpredictable when it comes to the past. Yes, things evolve and change. Creation has also been changed by God, and God's Word trumps science. Science can never trump God's Word and be correct. Even with the best observation money can purchase, science will always come up lacking all the facts.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

It is just not the origin of man that is suspect. The whole paradigm of science is not based on Scripture. Science has been flawed since 500 BC. We know evolution works. Jacob used it to his advantage to take the fittest livestock away from his deceptive father in law. The sons of God were able to change the size of humans. There is more in Scripture about evolution than any other aspect of science. The shape and size of the universe has been observed wrongly after Satan influenced human thought to change from God's Word to the current model.

No way the church can retract hundreds of years of false science. It is the church that convinced the world to get to this point. At least, lies snuck into the church, and instead of the church holding firm, it caved. Science can only speculate on what the brain thinks it can observe. Yes even the strictest observation has to rely on speculation. The point of 2 Peter 3, rings loud and clear, that we think all things remain the same since the very beginning. That is the basis of change, ie evolution that there cannot be change of the Godly type. Since God has made changes, nothing is the same since the beginning, thus evolution is skewered, skewed, and totally unpredictable when it comes to the past. Yes, things evolve and change. Creation has also been changed by God, and God's Word trumps science. Science can never trump God's Word and be correct. Even with the best observation money can purchase, science will always come up lacking all the facts.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Am I correct in interpreting your post to infer that man's way of thinking(??) surpasses what god in His Word plainly tells anyone who reads it that man is somehow superior to God? IMHO, the fact remains to me that God's statement in Genesis 1:1 ff is IMHO anyway, that God Himself IS in control of His creation in spite of what mere moral man may want to disprove this concept? Just because man has come up with his own (& sinfully rebellious BTW) so-called "Replacement Theory" as regards to how ANYTHING got here in the first place, IMHO seems to run a bit counter to what the thrice-holy God Himself clearly states in His Word. I interpret (& I do hope that I'm wrong in so doing.) that what you seem to indicate from your post that Christian Day Schools, especially in the Junior High and Senior High levels, should NOT teach the fallacies of man's way of skirting around what God in His Word clearly teaches? Please help me to more clearly understand what your post is trying to tell us. Since I'm at least 75 YO & a handicapped veteran, my mental capabilities are not always 110+% in working order, therefore you help in guiding me to better understand what, in fact, you are trying to tell us here on B B would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help in this matter.

 

[thomas15]

Selective breeding is not evolution. We do not go from a fish with purple eyes and green skin to a fox with a yellow tail and brown feet using selective breeding. If selective breeding could produce such a result there would be literally trillions of species on the earth.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Received a liberal arts BS degree in 1981. Then 10 years ago I broke my foot which requited plates, screws and pins to fix. While I was recovering I decided to do something that I had been thinking about for a long time, that is take a college level algebra class.

Enrolled in my local community college, took algebra 101. Then 102 and 201, then stats and pre-calc. All in the evening after work and solely for personal enrichment. After that I took Gen Chem 1&2, O-Chem 1&2, Biology 1&2, Micro and botany. At age 60 I was awarded a BIO-AS. Personal enrichment.

One of the reasons was to learn what I could about what is being taught at the undergrad level in biology and evolution. Bio 2 is about 90% evolution. My prof for that class, a big fan of Darwin, offered to give me a letter of recommendation to a State Univ. He couldn't believe it when I told him I was a young earth creationist.

My point. Learning the modern evolutionist theory didn't do anything to me other than enforce my faith in the Genesis account. Evolution has many holes and still doesn't work without some sort of outside force which the evolutionists claims doesn't exist. Dr. Whitcomb got it right 60+ years ago, the modern scientist, while brilliant, is a priest to the god of time through chance.

Are you interested in discussing your ideas with an Evolutionary Creationist who believes that the Bible is God's holy, pure, trustworthy and authoritative word to humans and that a proper hermeneutically sound interpretation of the book of Genesis has no conflict with the theory of evolution?

My wife is an old earth creationist who was also closed to evolutionary creationism for the longest time and still is skeptical for the most part but willing to consider ideas from the "dark side" . She is a public high school science and math teacher (who is very overqualified with a masters in Biochemistry) and does not enjoy teaching evolution and asks me for help in accurately teaching the strengths as well as the limitations of the theory. We also like to try and find ways to bring the idea of YEC and OEC as faith based alternatives into the conversation.

By the way, I really admire your desire to learn and enrich your knowledge of the world at aged 60. As someone who studied medicine as a second career, it is much harder to retain knowledge when your brain just doesn't work as quickly as it did when it was 20. Stats 101 was a surprisingly enjoyable class for me.

 

[thomas15]

Paul

I'm a literal 6 day young earth, fundamental inerrant Bible believer. You misunderstand my position I think. I'm saying that evolution, among other things is a major teaching in the world. If we don't have a basic understanding of what the world teaches then we will not be able to offer a better alternative. In spite of the fact that we have the truth, when we don't know what we are talking about we look uneducated.

Will some join the world if they know some of the teachings of the world? Yes, sorry to say but teaching creationism only in school will not guarantee that one goes on the believe the Gospel either. St. Paul tells us that the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. Some will take the world's path no matter what. The Israelites in the Exodus saw the power of God first hand but most did not believe.

What we need to do is personally stand firm in our convictions regarding the Gospel and the Bible and be a light for the world. We are for sure in a moral decline in this society, "evangelicalism" is now a joke, the "church" looks like the world. But not having an elementary knowledge of the currently popular theories, wrong as they are and at odds with the Bible, is not going to help us win the battle. We need to be in the world not of the world.

 

[thomas15]

Are you interested in discussing your ideas with an Evolutionary Creationist who believes that the Bible is God's holy, pure, trustworthy and authoritative word to humans and that a proper hermeneutically sound interpretation of the book of Genesis has no conflict with the theory of evolution?

My wife is an old earth creationist who was also closed to evolutionary creationism for the longest time and still is skeptical for the most part but willing to consider ideas from the "dark side" . She is a public high school science and math teacher (who is very overqualified with a masters in Biochemistry) and does not enjoy teaching evolution and asks me for help in accurately teaching the strengths as well as the limitations of the theory. We also like to try and find ways to bring the idea of YEC and OEC as faith based alternatives into the conversation.

By the way, I really admire your desire to learn and enrich your knowledge of the world at aged 60. As someone who studied medicine as a second career, it is much harder to retain knowledge when your brain just doesn't work as quickly as it did when it was 20. Stats 101 was a surprisingly enjoyable class for me.

I likewise admire you Sir for going back to school!

Same here with stats, I went into the class with fear in my heart but actually did well. For that matter I was in general a math retard back in the day and wanted to get past that barrier, that was for me unfinished business that I wanted to address.

I agree with you it is harder to learn the older we get. One of the things that motivated me was my feeling that most medical doctors, and this is not an insult to anyone rather it is a complement, but most of them are no smarter than most of us but they kept at it with a goal in mind and did not loose their focus all the way through medical school. Determination and hard work and personal sacrifice. And that is worthy of much respect.

If we take the words of the Bible seriously then I think we will be self-motivated to dig into the words of the Bible and take the lessons to heart. The question in my mind is "did God need 1000s of years to perform acts of creation or did he just speak the word as stated in the Bible? Can the English word "day" in Genesis mean centuries? Did God inspire Moses to use the correct words to reveal his creation or is it just a rough estimate? Is our God an awesome God with unlimited power or does He need time and chance to accomplish His goals?"

Most people will not respond well to a lecture but will in many cases answer the question if put in the form of a challenge.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I agree with you it is harder to learn the older we get. One of the things that motivated me was my feeling that most medical doctors, and this is not an insult to anyone rather it is a complement, but most of them are no smarter than most of us but they kept at it with a goal in mind and did not loose their focus all the way through medical school. Determination and hard work and personal sacrifice. And that is worthy of much respect.

i just had that conversation with my daughter this morning. I reminded her that perseverence will get you much further in life than intelligence, which she has heard many times before from us.

If we take the words of the Bible seriously then I think we will be self-motivated to dig into the words of the Bible and take the lessons to heart. The question in my mind is "did God need 1000s of years to perform acts of creation or did he just speak the word as stated in the Bible"? Can the English word "day" in Genesis mean centuries? Did God inspire Moses to use the correct words to reveal his creation or is it just a rough estimate? Is our God an awesome God with unlimited power or does He need time and chance to accomplish His goals?"

Most people will not respond well to a lecture but will in many cases answer the question if put in the form of a challenge.

I don't want to distract too much from this topic which is a good one about education and evolution/creationism. So maybe we can take our conversation to another one. If you want to focus on interpretation on Genesis rather than the science of evolution, you could start a thread on that theme.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I'm not quite sure how Bro. Thomas 15's last post actually fits into the nature of this particular thread, so if he could let us know how it actually fits into the dialogue of this thread, I'd really appreciate that. ANYWAY, in the 1970s - 1990s I was a teacher of both Jr High & Sr High students. These students came from families that were varied in their years as born-again believers: Some had been children of God for many years, but others were relatively newer members of God's flock. At any rate, I tried to expose these HS students to the fallacies of the humanistic theories (Yes, there are more than just one theory.) of circumventing what God's Word in Genesis 1:1 ff tells us, To replace what our Creator God tells us was probably the main reason for coming up with the notion that man somehow had a much better way of telling how all living matter came to be. This fallen man always wants to put HIS notions about how things came to be, the fallacies of these notions---and their consequences--I judged to be worthy of bringing to these young folks' minds since the majority of them were planning to further their education at some secular college or university. Whether or not my teaching them this bore any fruit in their hearts & minds, I do not know for certain. That'd be up to each individual. Anyway, "That's my story & I'm sticking with it, y'all!!"

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I'm not quite sure how Bro. Thomas 15's last post actually fits into the nature of this particular thread, so if he could let us know how it actually fits into the dialogue of this thread, I'd really appreciate that. ANYWAY, in the 1970s - 1990s I was a teacher of both Jr High & Sr High students. These students came from families that were varied in their years as born-again believers: Some had been children of God for many years, but others were relatively newer members of God's flock. At any rate, I tried to expose these HS students to the fallacies of the humanistic theories (Yes, there are more than just one theory.) of circumventing what God's Word in Genesis 1:1 ff tells us, To replace what our Creator God tells us was probably the main reason for coming up with the notion that man somehow had a much better way of telling how all living matter came to be. This fallen man always wants to put HIS notions about how things came to be, the fallacies of these notions---and their consequences--I judged to be worthy of bringing to these young folks' minds since the majority of them were planning to further their education at some secular college or university. Whether or not my teaching them this bore any fruit in their hearts & minds, I do not know for certain. That'd be up to each individual. Anyway, "That's my story & I'm sticking with it, y'all!!"

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I'm not quite sure how Bro. Thomas 15's last post actually fits into the nature of this particular thread, so if he could let us know how it actually fits into the dialogue of this thread, I'd really appreciate that. ANYWAY, in the 1970s - 1990s I was a teacher of both Jr High & Sr High students. These students came from families that were varied in their years as born-again believers: Some had been children of God for many years, but others were relatively newer members of God's flock. At any rate, I tried to expose these HS students to the fallacies of the humanistic theories (Yes, there are more than just one theory.) of circumventing what God's Word in Genesis 1:1 ff tells us, To replace what our Creator God tells us was probably the main reason for coming up with the notion that man somehow had a much better way of telling how all living matter came to be. Fallen man always wants to put HIS notions about how things came to be, the fallacies of these notions---and their consequences--I judged to be worthy of bringing to these young folks' minds since the majority of them were planning to further their education at some secular college or university. Whether or not my teaching them this bore any fruit in their hearts & minds, I do not know for certain. That'd be up to each individual. Anyway, "That's my story & I'm sticking with it, y'all!!"

 

[timtofly]

Am I correct in interpreting your post to infer that man's way of thinking(??) surpasses what god in His Word plainly tells anyone who reads it that man is somehow superior to God? IMHO, the fact remains to me that God's statement in Genesis 1:1 ff is IMHO anyway, that God Himself IS in control of His creation in spite of what mere moral man may want to disprove this concept?

No, I was not claiming human knowledge is superior to God or His Word.

I said the church failed humanity and went with Satan's knowledge instead of upholding the Word of God.

Nothing will solve the problem of modern education. Only the Second Coming will resolve this issue of the OP.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

No, I was not claiming human knowledge is superior to God or His Word.

I said the church failed humanity and went with Satan's knowledge instead of upholding the Word of God.

Nothing will solve the problem of modern education. Only the Second Coming will resolve this issue of the OP.