• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Should Christians Hold to any form of Theistic Evolution then?

cjab

Member
Can you tell me how the human eye evolved? See post #75 if this confuses you.
Given a timeframe of circa 500-1000 million years, anything is possible. Wiki gives some indicators of how the evolution of the eye might have happened.

By the way, I just read the article you linked to, and it does not prove evolution. The guppy stayed a guppy, the Anole lizards stayed anole lizards, and so on. For evolution to be true, the change has to be into a new species. Change within a species is normal, and accepted by all creationist scientists, such as my NASA scientist friend Dr. K.
In the timeframe of 100 years, the most you will see are genetic changes intra-species, not inter-species changes. Alone, it proves the principle of evolution. Extend the timeframe to hundreds of thousands, and millions of years and expect to see inter-species mutation.

Edited in: that website you linked to was kind of a "bait and switch" thing! They advertised proof for evolution, but then gave you something else. I'm sure you'll be ready for that next time, right? ;) Oh, and by the way, the article is anonymous, as all the articles there are, so nobody can correct their error. I don't allow my students to quote from anonymous sources in their research papers because of that lack of accountability. And before you ask, my real name is John R. Himes, as I've said numerous times on the BB, so no, I'm never anonymous.
The article isn't anonymous. It was written by Kelly McSweeney. One of the scientific articles on which it is based, is found here. I see no intention to deceive anyone. Please don't use underhand tactics yourself to deceive. I see no misinformation.

YEC is I believe a synthetic cult based on a contrarian predisposition, rather than on a respect-for-others predisposition. The credulity that it demands to take seriously today surpasses the credulity of evolution as a scientific process by a very wide margin. By equating faith in God with faith in YEC, its proponents are inviting judgement, as no apostle ever made such an equation between faith and science as is made by YEC.
 
Last edited:

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Keil and Delitzsch on Gen 1:6

"There is nothing in these poetical similes to warrant the idea that the heavens were regarded as a solid mass [or dome], a σιδήρεον, or χάλκεον or πολύχαλκον, such as Greek poets describe. The רקיע (rendered Veste by Luther, after the στερέωα of the lxx and firmamentum of the Vulgate) is called heaven in Genesis 1:8, i.e., the vault of heaven, which stretches out above the earth. The waters under the firmament are the waters upon the globe itself; those above are not ethereal waters."

Similar remarks are made by K&D vis-a-vis Gen 1:8. The initial issue seems to be that you insist on interpreting Gen 1:1-11 by reference to Greek secular "science." Sure there are plenty of commentaries that refer to it, but the question is, why is Greek secular science relevant to what antedated it? Moses antedated ancient Greek classical civilization by circa 500 years.

And if you allege that Gen 1:1-11 is not "Moses" but merely a Grecian or Babylonian-inspired redaction, are you not insinuating that Genesis isn't inspired?

The word "dome" doesn't appear in the Keil and Delitzsch commentary, and similarly doesn't appear in many other commentaries. How can it be so justified as to become the basis for your translation?
You are apparently quoting from pages 52-53 in the English translation of the 10-volume commentary on the Bible, Biblischer Kommentar über das Alte Testament written in German by Johann Friedrich Karl Keil and Franz Julius Delitzsch and originally published in the years 1866-1877. Keil wrote on Genesis through Esther and Jeremiah to Malachi; Delitzsch wrote on Job to Isaiah. In the English Edition that you are quoting from, the part on the Pentateuch was translated by James Martin. Delitzsch also wrote separately a 2-volume commentary on Genesis in German, Commentar über die Genesis. This work is far more detailed and accurate than what Keil wrote. The first edition was published in 1852, and a fourth edition in 1866. A fifth and final edition translated by Sophia Taylor was published in 1888. It is a hard copy of this edition that I have here in my study. On pages 85-86, Delitzsch expressly contradict the ridiculously incorrect statements made by Keil.
 

cjab

Member
You are apparently quoting from pages 52-53 in the English translation of the 10-volume commentary on the Bible, Biblischer Kommentar über das Alte Testament written in German by Johann Friedrich Karl Keil and Franz Julius Delitzsch and originally published in the years 1866-1877. Keil wrote on Genesis through Esther and Jeremiah to Malachi; Delitzsch wrote on Job to Isaiah. In the English Edition that you are quoting from, the part on the Pentateuch was translated by James Martin. Delitzsch also wrote separately a 2-volume commentary on Genesis in German, Commentar über die Genesis. This work is far more detailed and accurate than what Keil wrote. The first edition was published in 1852, and a fourth edition in 1866. A fifth and final edition translated by Sophia Taylor was published in 1888. It is a hard copy of this edition that I have here in my study. On pages 85-86, Delitzsch expressly contradict the ridiculously incorrect statements made by Keil.
I am reading Sophia Taylor's translation of 1889. First, I cannot perceive what contradiction on pp. 85-86 you are referring to. "Dome" and "solid structures" are not invoked by Delitzsch, to my mind. Secondly, I don't accept Delitzsch is necessarily an advance on Keil, for the following reasons.

Delitzsch seems signed up to the authenticity of the higher criticism. This was much in vogue in Germany, in that era. His "Introduction" tends to affirm more value placed on the "criticism" than on the inspiration of the text. He writes at p. 1 of his Introduction:

"CRITICISM at present fixes the date of the main bulk of the Pentateuch, the so-called Priest Codex, together with the Law of Holiness, which has so striking a relation to Ezekiel, at the time of the captivity and the restoration under Ezra and Nehemiah. The Book of Deuteronomy however presupposes the primary legislation contained in Ex. xix.-xxiv. and the work of the Jehovistic historian. Hence we cannot avoid relegating the origin of certain component parts of the Pentateuch to the middle ages of the kings ; and, if we continue our critical analysis, we find ourselves constrained to go back still farther, perhaps even to the times of the Judges, and thus to tread the soil of a hoar antiquity without incurring the verdict of lack of scientific knowledge. Even those who insist upon transferring the conception of the account of the creation in Gen. i. 1-ii. 4, and of the primaeval histories, which are of a form homogeneous with it, to the post-exilian period, do not, for the most part, deny that they are based upon subjects and materials handed down from long past ages. For the most part, we repeat ; for there are even some who think that these primaeval histories, e.g. the account of the Deluge, were not brought with them by the Terahites at their departure from Chaldea, but first obtained by the exiles in Babylon from Babylonian sources, and remodelled in Israelite fashion. Under these circumstances, and especially on the threshold of Genesis, — that book of origins and primaeval history, — it will be a suitable preparation for our critical problems to attain to historical certainty as to how far the art of writing reaches back among the people to whom the authorship of Genesis belongs, and as to the date at which the beginnings of literature may be found or expected among them."

Then he discourses on the origin of writing and at the bottom of page 3 of his Introduction he states:

"Hence the patriarchal ancestral families of Israel do not as yet manifest a knowledge of writing, which first appears among the people on their departure from Egypt. The Pentateuchal history itself impresses upon us the fact that Israel learned the art of writing in Egypt, where the possession of this art reaches far back in pre-Mosaic times. For the exodus took place under Menephthes (per the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, he ruled from 1213 until 1203 BC ), the fourth Pharaoh of the 19th dynasty, and Herodotus already saw the pyramid belonging to the 1st Manethonian dynasty covered with hieroglyphics."

Let's assess this info. against modern archaeology. IMO, it is discountable. (1) Abraham was a prince of Ur, a city at the centre of the Sumerian / Akkadian civilization. Hence he would certainly have known how to write. Joseph also, who was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. There is nothing to suggest that the Hebrews didn't retain the knowledge of writing throughout their stay in Egypt, and may even have taught it to the Egyptians. Sumerian writing dates back to 3300BC, at least. So that consigns Delitzsch's statement "the patriarchal ancestral families of Israel do not as yet manifest a knowledge of writing" as rubbish. (2) The date of the exodus was more likely the 15th century BC, or earlier. The 19th dynasty date is completely wrong, a legacy of past error. Ramses II had nothing to do with the exodus and wasn't the pharaoh of oppression. (3) The articles of the higher criticism, the distinction between the J" source (Yahwist) using "Jehovah" and the "E" source (Elohist) using "Elohim", were a 19th/20th century fad, and today are credited by few persons as historical fact. As one commentator has remarked "The presuppositions and beliefs of the Bible writers and of the critics were absolutely contradictory. To maintain that the modern view is a development and advance upon the Biblical view, is absurd. No presupposition can develop a presupposition which contradicts and nullifies it. To say that the critical position and the Biblical position, or the traditional evangelical view which is the same as the Biblical, are reconcilable, is the most fatuous folly and delusion."

I suggest that if you credit Delitzsch as an advance on Keil, then what you're advocating is that the critical view should transcend the evangelical. I put it to you that the evangelical and higher criticism POVs are actually irreconcilable. But as I say, in respect of Gen 1:6-9, I don't know what point you're making.
 
Given a timeframe of circa 500-1000 million years, anything is possible. Wiki gives some indicators of how the evolution of the eye might have happened.
No, given a timeframe of 500-1000 million years "anything" is not possible. If it cannot happen, it will not happen no matter how long you give the process. An impossibility is an impossibility regardless of how many times you attempt it. The importance of 500-1000 million years is the magic wand to make you extrapolate a process and imagine how it might have happened.
Much like the evolution of the eye, you have to imagine how it "might" occur.
In the timeframe of 100 years, the most you will see are genetic changes intra-species, not inter-species changes.
And, inasmuch as that is all we ever see, there is no justification for extrapolation beyond the reasonable limits of what can be observed. Beyond that, you are not in any realm of science and you simply have a post-modern creation myth.
Alone, it proves the principle of evolution. Extend the timeframe to hundreds of thousands, and millions of years and expect to see inter-species mutation.
It proves only what creationists have accepted for ages and is observable. I know that chihuahuas and great danes are related. They began as dogs and they remain dogs. The differences are extreme (and somewhat superficial) but, there are limits.
There is no scientifically rigorous reason to imagine that they are related to the banana.
I do not then "expect" inter-species mutation. I "expect" intra-species mutations.
If I already assumed the Darwinian myth, then, given the magic wand of 1000 million years I might imagine it.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Given a timeframe of circa 500-1000 million years, anything is possible. Wiki gives some indicators of how the evolution of the eye might have happened.
This is a typical evolutionist answer. Throw a few 100 million years at the problem and it will go away. Sorry, that is an inadequate answer, and that is why so many Christians are creationists nowadays. All evolution can answer with is "millions of years." But that is not science. Science demands observation, and no one has seen anything evolving, nor can they.

But the problems still remains. You can't whitewash it away. Again, none of the individual parts of the eye can stand alone. Why would a cornea develop, for example? It is useless by itself. In the Wiki article (anonymous again, so college students are not allowed to use that as a source), the various parts of the eye just show up, somehow. There is no explanation of how each part, useless individually, developed.

But the Wiki article gives some great quotes, such as this one: "In 1802, philosopher William Paley called it a miracle of 'design.'" Exactly. A design by an infinitely intelligent Person, our God.
In the timeframe of 100 years, the most you will see are genetic changes intra-species, not inter-species changes. Alone, it proves the principle of evolution. Extend the timeframe to hundreds of thousands, and millions of years and expect to see inter-species mutation.
That's the best you have? First of all, changes intra-species and inter-species are completely different subjects. Again, the article proves absolutely nothing about inter-species evolution. The data is simply not there.

And you say "expect to see interspecies mutation." Why and how? This is the vagueness with which evolution seeks to prove its "science." But when evolution departs from cold, hard, facts, it ceases to be science.
The article isn't anonymous. It was written by Kelly McSweeney. One of the scientific articles on which it is based, is found here. I see no intention to deceive anyone. Please don't use underhand tactics yourself to deceive. I see no misinformation.
I didn't claim "misinformation." I claimed anonymity, and in the academic world where I work, that is unacceptable. At any rate, thanks for setting me straight. In reading the article on its webpage, I saw no sign that Kelly wrote it.

Now, in my entire life I have not been accused of being underhanded, and certainly not in my many years here on the BB. Pray tell, what "underhanded" tactic did I use, and how did I try to deceive you? I simply noted that the article was not sourced (and it was not on the webpage). In the academic world we must have sources. I give failing grades when I get no sources from the student.
YEC is I believe a synthetic cult based on a contrarian predisposition, rather than on a respect-for-others predisposition. The credulity that it demands to take seriously today surpasses the credulity of evolution as a scientific process by a very wide margin. By equating faith in God with faith in YEC, its proponents are inviting judgement, as no apostle ever made such an equation between faith and science as is made by YEC.
A "cult"? Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous. YEC does not fit any possible definition of a cult.

And I have made no comments inviting such a response. It looks to me like you are the judgmental one, not me.
 
Last edited:

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Given a timeframe of circa 500-1000 million years, anything is possible. Wiki gives some indicators of how the evolution of the eye might have happened.
I answered this thought with an 18 minute video that you don’t have time to watch.
You could understand that this is mathematically impossible or you can continue ignoring evidence and continue in your ignorant bias.
 
Top