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Should Christians support a platform that keeps abortion on demand abortion choice?

Should a Christian support a platform that vows to keep abortion on demand abortion choice for the p

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
For the same reason you "demonize" Christians who cannot support evil (even that "lesser evil") by voting.

I get that we won't agree with all policies ina platform. I'm just surprised at some of the compromises you are willing to make....but that is probably because the moral issues you are willing to compromise were the reason I voted in the first place.

Many in the US will. Most, in fact, will. They will hold their one knowing that they are voting to enact evil in order to get the things they believe will help the nation.

But I believe we are accountable for our actions and our voice. So I can't.

I don't subscribe to utilitarianism. I believe acts hold a moral value.

That old going back in time to murder Hitler when he was a child.....my answer is "no", because I believe that murdering a child is wrong. Your answer would be "yes" because it would save lives.

As have said before and which you continue to miss God has used immoral powers to accomplish His plan. That you do not want to vote is your choice but as I see it you have chosen inaction. For all we know God may want to have the evil of abortion put in front of people at the state level so they have to make the choice close to home so to speak. I am not God so I do not presume to know what His overall plan is.

As for the theoretical of going back in time its' quite presumptuous of you to decide what I would or would not do. I prefer facts God did use immoral powers to accomplish His goal.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Conversation about "to vote or not to vote" reminds of the excerpt below. It has not kept me from voting - at least not yet - but I do have a lot of sympathy for the reasoning:

David Lipscomb quoting B.U. Watkins in Lipscomb’s book, On Civil Government: Its Origin, Mission, and Destiny, and the Christian's Relation to It.

“One of the signs of the great Apostacy, was the union of Church and State. Its chosen symbol was a woman upon the back of a seven headed and ten horned beast. It is almost uniformly admitted, among American Protestants, that this is a well chosen symbol to represent the absurd, and unnatural union of Church and State. It is generally conceded, that the woman represents the Church, and the beast the old Roman civil government. This being true, it would appear far more natural for her to be riding the beast, than for him to have his locomotion promoted by the help of the woman! When the State comes forward and proffers its assistance, and the Church voluntarily accepts of such help, it might be a question, which would be the most to blame; the Church for accepting, or the State for offering such assistance. But when the Church gives, unasked, her power to the beast, no excuse can reasonably be pleaded. If the State supporting the Church, is called an adulterous union, I am unable to see, why the union is not equally intimate, and criminal, when the Church supports the State, by participating in all its responsibilities. When the Church offers her fellowship, and co-operation in framing all the laws of the land, and in choosing its judicial and executive officers - when even her members refuse not to become legislators, and are even forward to fill all the offices of human governments, I cannot see, but the relation between church and State, is as intimate as ever, and just as illegal. Ezekiel chided the ancient Hebrews for seeking such union with the nations; and he compares Israel to a woman of the lowest infamy. It is exceedingly painful to me, to see how aptly these symbols of John and Ezekiel apply to modern professors. But how greatly would I rejoice, if the reformation of the 19th century would arise and put on her beautiful garments, and show herself to be the true spouse of Christ. May the good Lord grant that this noble brotherhood, that I so dearly love, may soon see the whole truth! But here, I am met with the objection, that these institutions are ordained of God. And he who resists them resists an ordinance of God, and shall receive punishment. Let me here pause, and remark, that I would sooner be understood as taking the popular view of this passage, rather than appear to countenance any kind of war. Nothing is further from my intention. But the fact of civil government being ordained of God, is no proof of Divine approbation. So long as it can be clearly shown that he has ordained that one sinner should punish another, so long as we read in Isaiah, that Cyrus was sent against Babylon, although he knew not God, so long as we find it not difficult to admit the application of the above passage, to civil government, whether such be its meaning or not. To make the admission saves much time, and leaves the argument much more compact. Something is gained and nothing lost by granting all we can to our opponents. That God can overrule sin, without being responsible for its commission, and without having any complicity with it, is a thing so plain, that to turn aside to explain it would almost be an insult to those for whom these columns are written. Let a hint suffice. Pharaoh was raised up by God for a certain purpose, although his behavior was far from being approved of God. With a few axioms I will close this article. Axiom 1st, No man has the right of making laws for his own government. For such a right would include the double absurdity of making him independent of God, and responsible only to himself! Axiom 2nd. A republican government is one in which power is thought to be delegated by the people to their rulers, in their act of voting. Axiom 3rd. But a man cannot delegate a power he himself does not possess. Hence, INFERENCE 1st. As man has no inherent legislative power, he cannot transfer it to another. Hence, INFERENCE 2nd. Voting is therefore a deception, and a sham, making a deceiver of him, who votes, and a dupe of him who fancies himself the recipient of delegated power.”
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
As have said before and which you continue to miss God has used immoral powers to accomplish His plan. That you do not want to vote is your choice but as I see it you have chosen inaction. For all we know God may want to have the evil of abortion put in front of people at the state level so they have to make the choice close to home so to speak. I am not God so I do not presume to know what His overall plan is.

As for the theoretical of going back in time its' quite presumptuous of you to decide what I would or would not do. I prefer facts God did use immoral powers to accomplish His goal.
????? I keep telling you that God used ungodly people and nations to accomplish His goals. This included using Rome to crucify Jesus.

But you are not talking about God using ungodly nations to accomplish His goals. You are talking about supporting evil to accomplish your goals.

God calls us to obey, not to support evil in hopes of bringing about good.

The Christian obeys God knowing that He works all things for the good.


Will God use unfaithful Christians? Yes, of course. BUT are they rewarded for their unfaithfulness? No, never.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Conversation about "to vote or not to vote" reminds of the excerpt below. It has not kept me from voting - at least not yet - but I do have a lot of sympathy for the reasoning:

David Lipscomb quoting B.U. Watkins in Lipscomb’s book, On Civil Government: Its Origin, Mission, and Destiny, and the Christian's Relation to It.

“One of the signs of the great Apostacy, was the union of Church and State. Its chosen symbol was a woman upon the back of a seven headed and ten horned beast. It is almost uniformly admitted, among American Protestants, that this is a well chosen symbol to represent the absurd, and unnatural union of Church and State. It is generally conceded, that the woman represents the Church, and the beast the old Roman civil government. This being true, it would appear far more natural for her to be riding the beast, than for him to have his locomotion promoted by the help of the woman! When the State comes forward and proffers its assistance, and the Church voluntarily accepts of such help, it might be a question, which would be the most to blame; the Church for accepting, or the State for offering such assistance. But when the Church gives, unasked, her power to the beast, no excuse can reasonably be pleaded. If the State supporting the Church, is called an adulterous union, I am unable to see, why the union is not equally intimate, and criminal, when the Church supports the State, by participating in all its responsibilities. When the Church offers her fellowship, and co-operation in framing all the laws of the land, and in choosing its judicial and executive officers - when even her members refuse not to become legislators, and are even forward to fill all the offices of human governments, I cannot see, but the relation between church and State, is as intimate as ever, and just as illegal. Ezekiel chided the ancient Hebrews for seeking such union with the nations; and he compares Israel to a woman of the lowest infamy. It is exceedingly painful to me, to see how aptly these symbols of John and Ezekiel apply to modern professors. But how greatly would I rejoice, if the reformation of the 19th century would arise and put on her beautiful garments, and show herself to be the true spouse of Christ. May the good Lord grant that this noble brotherhood, that I so dearly love, may soon see the whole truth! But here, I am met with the objection, that these institutions are ordained of God. And he who resists them resists an ordinance of God, and shall receive punishment. Let me here pause, and remark, that I would sooner be understood as taking the popular view of this passage, rather than appear to countenance any kind of war. Nothing is further from my intention. But the fact of civil government being ordained of God, is no proof of Divine approbation. So long as it can be clearly shown that he has ordained that one sinner should punish another, so long as we read in Isaiah, that Cyrus was sent against Babylon, although he knew not God, so long as we find it not difficult to admit the application of the above passage, to civil government, whether such be its meaning or not. To make the admission saves much time, and leaves the argument much more compact. Something is gained and nothing lost by granting all we can to our opponents. That God can overrule sin, without being responsible for its commission, and without having any complicity with it, is a thing so plain, that to turn aside to explain it would almost be an insult to those for whom these columns are written. Let a hint suffice. Pharaoh was raised up by God for a certain purpose, although his behavior was far from being approved of God. With a few axioms I will close this article. Axiom 1st, No man has the right of making laws for his own government. For such a right would include the double absurdity of making him independent of God, and responsible only to himself! Axiom 2nd. A republican government is one in which power is thought to be delegated by the people to their rulers, in their act of voting. Axiom 3rd. But a man cannot delegate a power he himself does not possess. Hence, INFERENCE 1st. As man has no inherent legislative power, he cannot transfer it to another. Hence, INFERENCE 2nd. Voting is therefore a deception, and a sham, making a deceiver of him, who votes, and a dupe of him who fancies himself the recipient of delegated power.”
Christianity has a long history of abstaining from politics. Outside of the Roman Catholic Church this was the norm.

The early church was faced with the accusations @Silverhair now makes of believers. In the mid 200's AD Contra Celsum was written as an apologetic of the Christian faith. One of the charges was that Christians claim to do good but refuse to engage in politics and refuse to hold office. These accusations were from pagan Romans.

It appears that many here have adopted the position of those pagans against believers. @Silverhair certainly has.

My position is that each must follow their conscious. This, however, does not mean I cannot express my own. And it does not mean all points shouldn't be considered.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
????? I keep telling you that God used ungodly people and nations to accomplish His goals. This included using Rome to crucify Jesus.

But you are not talking about God using ungodly nations to accomplish His goals. You are talking about supporting evil to accomplish your goals.

God calls us to obey, not to support evil in hopes of bringing about good.

The Christian obeys God knowing that He works all things for the good.


Will God use unfaithful Christians? Yes, of course. BUT are they rewarded for their unfaithfulness? No, never.

How do you think God uses immoral powers? How do you think He destroys those powers? God uses men some times evil ones and sometimes Christians. This is something that you just do not seem able to grasp. By your logic those Christians that fought against many different evils would be considered unfaithful.

You have put yourself in the position of God when you decide who is faithful and who is not.

You can decide for yourself you do not have the right to decide for other Christians although you seem to think you do.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Christianity has a long history of abstaining from politics. Outside of the Roman Catholic Church this was the norm.

The early church was faced with the accusations @Silverhair now makes of believers. In the mid 200's AD Contra Celsum was written as an apologetic of the Christian faith. One of the charges was that Christians claim to do good but refuse to engage in politics and refuse to hold office. These accusations were from pagan Romans.

It appears that many here have adopted the position of those pagans against believers. @Silverhair certainly has.

My position is that each must follow their conscious. This, however, does not mean I cannot express my own. And it does not mean all points shouldn't be considered.

So you continue to slander all those Christians that used their voice and vote to overcome various evils. They even by times had to use what you call "lesser evil" to accomplish that task.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
How do you think God uses immoral powers? How do you think He destroys those powers? God uses men some times evil ones and sometimes Christians. This is something that you just do not seem able to grasp. By your logic those Christians that fought against many different evils would be considered unfaithful.

You have put yourself in the position of God when you decide who is faithful and who is not.

You can decide for yourself you do not have the right to decide for other Christians although you seem to think you do.
God works out all things for the good. In the Old Testament He used immoral powers to discipline Israel. In the New Testamemt He used immoral powers betray and to crucify Jesus. In the early church God used the persecutions of Christians to strengthen and spread the faith.

The better question is - How did God NEVER use His people when faced with immoral powers?

God never used His people to partner with immoral powers to bring about a better world.

God punished His people for their disobedience, even when their disobedience was logical and intended for the good (like keeping the livestock in the OT).

God never blessed His people when they sought to support, or become a part of, immoral powers.


What you do when you united with immoral powers is you become a part of the "problem", you become immoral.

Look at you. You advocate supporting abortion as a choice because you like the economic and immigration policies of a platform. You become evil in what you support.

How are you any different (morally) from those you oppose? You and your opposition support the same immoral issues but different on economics and immigration.


By your reasoning I would be doing evil by supporting you (because you support, with your nose held, evil).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
So you continue to slander all those Christians that used their voice and vote to overcome various evils. They even by times had to use what you call "lesser evil" to accomplish that task.
If they supported a platform that included abortion as a choice and the normalization and/or acceptance of homosexual individuals....then it's not slander but a fact. They supported evil.

Do you not know why abortion is wrong? It is the murder of a baby.

Do you not understand why it is wrong to normalize and accept homosexuality? It is a sexual immoral sin.

It is not slander to point out that supporting evil is evil.


These professing "Christians" are not using evil...which is bad enough. They are supporting evil.

I only call the GOP a "lesser evil" in terms of its danger to our nation.

The GOP is a greater evil to our faith. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing while the DNC is proudly a wolf.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God works out all things for the good. In the Old Testament He used immoral powers to discipline Israel. In the New Testamemt He used immoral powers betray and to crucify Jesus. In the early church God used the persecutions of Christians to strengthen and spread the faith.

The better question is - How did God NEVER use His people when faced with immoral powers?

God never used His people to partner with immoral powers to bring about a better world.

God punished His people for their disobedience, even when their disobedience was logical and intended for the good (like keeping the livestock in the OT).

God never blessed His people when they sought to support, or become a part of, immoral powers.


What you do when you united with immoral powers is you become a part of the "problem", you become immoral.

Look at you. You advocate supporting abortion as a choice because you like the economic and immigration policies of a platform. You become evil in what you support.

How are you any different (morally) from those you oppose? You and your opposition support the same immoral issues but different on economics and immigration.


By your reasoning I would be doing evil by supporting you (because you support, with your nose held, evil).

By your comments it just shows you do not know your history. Many Christians had to use the immoral powers to further the ultimate goal. Think of slavery.

You can think what you like but reality is reality. God has and will continue to use Christians to further His plan even when it means using what you call "lesser evil".

You just do not trust God or perhaps you think you know better than God. You are in no position to judge God or those that do the work of God.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
If they supported a platform that included abortion as a choice and the normalization and/or acceptance of homosexual individuals....then it's not slander but a fact. They supported evil.

Do you not know why abortion is wrong? It is the murder of a baby.

Do you not understand why it is wrong to normalize and accept homosexuality? It is a sexual immoral sin.

It is not slander to point out that supporting evil is evil.


These professing "Christians" are not using evil...which is bad enough. They are supporting evil.

I only call the GOP a "lesser evil" in terms of its danger to our nation.

The GOP is a greater evil to our faith. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing while the DNC is proudly a wolf.

Did I not say that both parties were immoral? But you continue to miss what God has done in the past through faithful Christians. It is sad that you have such a closed mind. You are willing to stand back and do nothing rather than use the various tools that God has put in place. He has and will continue to use faithful Christians to use fallen men to further His plan
 
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