Should Christians support the death penalty?

To Gold Dragon

Thank you for addressing the text in 1 Tim. Then context is clear if you don't bring preconceived options into it.

I agree we should err on the side of life. Killers who die in their sins have all eternity to suffer the punishment for their sins.

thanks for the post

 

To av1611jim

I dont' think you are reading this passage in the context that it was written. It is clear the "purpose" Paul is referring to is that he would be an example of the longsuffering Jesus displayed toward a murderer, the foremost of all sinners, and that example is directed to future Christians. We should have longsuffering and patience with such people, not put them to death as quickly as possible.

(you said)

"Nothing here even remotely suggests letting killers escape their just punishment."

I have not advocated letting killers go. I know you believe the only just punishment is their quick execution. We are going to disagree on that. We can punish someone by keeping them in prison for the rest of their lives. We will disagree on whether that is "reward" or punishment.

(you said)

"It is because of the mindset of the "no death penalty" folks that they (killers) will not blink an eye when killing someone." and "And do you know what they have said? I have heard it with my own ears. '"What can they do? They'll just lock me up. They can't kill me."'

I don't want to base my actions and beliefs on what murderers think of them. I want to base my actions and beliefs on what God has said in His Word.

(you said)

"Only by swift and sure executions can you even hope to stem the tide of rampant lawlessness."

I say that only by faithful proclamation of the gospel, swift and sure conversion by way of the Holy Spirit, and the clear teaching of scripture concerning godly living can we hope to stem the tide of rampant lawlessness. God can stop this lawlessness at anytime. Come Lord Jesus!!!

(you said)

"When you have lived for 2 1/2 years in prison with these men (as I have), then come and talk to me about giving them the gospel."

I don't have to spend 2 1/2 years in prison with murderers to know I should give them the gospel. I have been commanded by Christ to give them the gospel. That is the only thing I need.

I have great compassion for you and what you have lived through. Our response to our experiences reveal what is in our heart. I pray for grace, mercy, and peace for us all.

thanks for the post

 

To PastorGreg

(you said)

"Your view of Genesis 9 makes it say exactly the opposite of what it says."

Once again, the context of Gen.9 is clear. God makes the distinction between and animals and men. Mankind is created is His image. Although the animals have now been given for food, humans are not to be killed because they are made in God's image. Can you agree with me that is the context?

I maintain that God's prohibition against killing people is based on their being made in His image. Can we agree on that?

God then makes the statement about requiring the blood of someone who kills a man. I understand you see that as instituting the death penalty for murder. I maintain the focus of the statement is to reinforce his prohibition against taking the life of a human being. We know it is not an absolute statement, because many have been murderers (Moses, David, Paul) and God did not require their lives in return.

God can take a person's life whenever He chooses. I maintain that God has never given Christians the command to take anyones life. We are to pursue people with the gospel and with grace.

I do not believe I am making Gen.9 say the opposite of what it means in context. On the contrary, those who maintain that it gives secular governments the power to impose the death penalty are reading for more into the passage than the text and context allow.

(You said)

"The fact that Numbers 35 is part of the law does not make it moot for us."

Are you maintaining we should live according to the Old Testament Laws of Israel?

(You said)

"Wrong again about David and Paul. David was the king - his word was law."

That is just not true. David was subject to the Law like everyone else. The prophet Nathan confronted David with his sin in 2 Samuel 12. Verse 13, "Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD. "And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die." David was clearly in danger of being executed because of the murder, but God had mercy.

(You said)

"what Paul did was not considered murder by the government of his day."

It was certainly considered murder by God. Acts 8:1-3 "And Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him (Stephen) to death." Acts 9:1 "Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord..."

(You said)

"It was, in fact, a sanctioned action."

You scare me. Don't you realize you are defending the murder of Christians because a secular government sanctioned it? What about today? If China or Saudi Arabia kills Christians are we to support those death penalties because a secular government carried them out? What about the end times when Christians are rounded up and being put to death? Are you going to support those death penalties because a secular government imposes them?

 

(You Said)

OK, my point was not that governments didn't require their lives, but that God didn't require their lives. This demonstrates that Gen.9 is not an absolute assertion. That governments use the death penalty (or abuse) is not the point. The issue is whether Christians should support the death penalty. I maintain that God has nowhere commanded Christians to seek the death of anyone. In fact, I Tim.1:15-16 clearly indicates that Christians who are dealing with violent people, including murderers like Paul and those mentioned in v.9-10, should follow the example of Jesus in His dealings with Paul and show great patience and mercy. We pursue people with the gospel and love and mercy. It is unseemly for Christians to support the death of anyone.

Perhaps you would like to give your understanding of I Tim.1:15-16?

 

To Marcia

(You Said)

"Verses 12-17 are focusing on Christ as being the one through whom anyone can be saved. The focus is on the saving power of faith in Christ"

You have misread this passage. Because of this, everything you have said in support of your position cannot stand.

The focus of this passage is on the "enabling power" of Christ that strengthens faithful Christians for service. The entire first chapter of I Timothy is designed to strengthen Timothy's resolve to stay at Ephesus to confront false teachers (3-6). These false teachers were probably using the Jewish Old Testament (v.7-8) to undermine Timothy's teaching. Paul tells Timothy he (Paul) has been entrusted with the gospel, (v.1 & 11) and he is passing this trust on the Timothy (v. 18)

In v. 12 Paul begins a discourse on how Christ had enabled him to complete the task he had been assigned. Paul had suffered horrible opposition throughout his ministry. Timothy had been a constant companion and was well aware of what Paul had suffered. Jesus "strengthened" Paul because of his faithful service. (v.12) The "grace", "faith", and "love" he speaks of in v. 14 are the "how" Paul was "strengthened". This is not salvific grace, but enabling grace.

His reference to "mercy" in v.13 is something akin to "enabling" mercy. You can find a similar use in Hebrews chapter 4, where the author is speaking of Christians continuing strong in their faith until they enter into the rest of Jesus Christ. In v.16, "Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need." The time of need is the time of persecution when they were tempted to return to Judism for safety. Both "mercy" and "grace" are speaking of an enabling power, it "helps" them to continue strongly, not salvific because they were already believers. Paul is using the same usage in I Tim. 1:12-13. The word "unbelief" is a reference to the "untrustworthiness" he had exibited as a unbeliever and persecutor of the Chruch. He had acted in ignorance. Timothy could not use that excuse because he was a believer. Believers are "strengthened" when they are faithful (v.12). Timothy must be faithful to his task. If he is, he will receive the same type of "enabling" grace, faith, love.

In v.15-16, Paul tells Timothy the attitude he should have toward other people. He says Christ saved Him so that His (Christ's) example of patience with Paul would be demonstrated (taught) to all future Christians. He says in chapter 2, (v.1) "entreaties, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men, (v.3) this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I believe support for the death penalty is in direct opposition to this passage. Putting someone to death is the eptiome of not having the same type of patience which Christ demonstrated with Paul. God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That possibility is forever cut off when someone is put to death.

thanks for the post

 

To av1611jim

(you said)

"I believe jd has been put to silence. Only by spiritualizing Scripture and ignoring the plain teaching that God has endowed Governments with power to punish evil doers, can he make his case."

First of all. I have attempted to show you clearly the context of every scripture passage we have discussed. Once again, you misrepresent what I have said. I have not denied God has used secular governments to execute the death penalty. I have consistently said God has nowhere commanded that Christians should seek the death of anyone or support the death of anyone. I Pet is no exception to that.

(You said)
Referring to I Pet. 2:13-15 and 4:15

"Here we see Peter adminoshing Christians to submit to every ordinance of man. Historically, in EVERY society I know of, the death penalty has been the normal punishment for murderers ( among other crimes). Unless you want to change God's word, you MUST accept that the death penalty is of God."

You are simply ignoring the context of I Pet. in order to try to make it say that Peter wanted Christians to support the death penalty. The context is the same as Paul's admonition in Rom. 13. Don't be in opposition to the government! Peter is saying here that if they are persecuted, let it be for doing good and not evil. chapter 1:12 "Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation." The believer's good deeds will be made manifest of the day of visitation (This could mean the Second Coming of Christ or, more likely, it means on the day the governor(v.14) of a province made the judicial rounds to hear criminal and civil cases). Because their good deeds are so evident to men, the ones who slandered them will have to admit they were wrong and praise God.

When Peter says in v. 15, "For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men." He is again saying that those who are making accusations against Christians will be seen as foolish in the day of judgement (by Christ or by the governor) because the Christians have given no cause for offense. They will receive praise instead.

This is the same context in Chapter 4:15, "By no means let any of you suffer as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome medler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God."

Again, you are ignoring the context in an attempt to make scripture say something that it does not say. It does not say Christians should support the death penalty or seek the death of anyone. You are clearly reading that into the text!

Your statement that Christians MUST obey EVERY ordinance of the secular government is flatout wrong. We cannot, and should not, obey ordinances that violate scripture and/or conscience. Why are we opposing the abortion laws? They are the law of the land, but they violate conscience and scripture. We should attempt to change them, lawfully. The same is true of death penalty laws.

Peter did not obey the Sanhedrin when they ordered him not to speak the name of Jesus. Acts 5:27b-29, "And the high priest questioned them, saying, 'We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.' But Peter and the apostles answered and said, 'We must obey God rather than men.'"

Hilter had a law that all Jews were to be killed in the gas chambers. By your statement, since Hitler was in charge of Germany, and this was a law of the secular government, Christians MUST obey it.

According to God's Word, Christians will suffer great persecution and even death during the "Last Days" before Christ returns. I fear we are putting into place the acceptance of the same death penalty that may very well be used against us during that time.

thanks for the post, and keep searching the scriptures.