Should Churches borrow money?

[Yeshua1]

Well that being the case I say we all meet in the kitchen... The preacher can set up his pulpit in the kitchen and while he feeds us the word, we can feed our face... I know how Baptist love to eat!... I know Jesus fed the 5,000 AFTER the sermon on the mount... Just a suggestion... Brother Glen

Btw... You also mentioned bathroom... Well brother if you want to meet in there, you're going to have to go there alone!

Well, I have heard some messages, especially while back in Charasmatic days, who should have been flushed down the toilet!

 

[tyndale1946]

Well, I have heard some messages, especially while back in Charasmatic days, who should have been flushed down the toilet!

Maybe setting fire to them with the false gospel torch would have been better, you don't want to clog up the toilet... Brother Glen

 

[Rockson]

That seems to me like the way it should work.
What has me wondering about this is the fact our church is about to vote on a new building program. We have supposedly "outgrown" our sanctuary. It seats a little over 400 and we run about 300. We only have one service because two services would "divide the church into separate groups that rarely see each other." So, we need to go out and borrow a few million for a new sanctuary. Its not really setting too well with me.

I don't like the idea of gathering of believers borrowing money from banks to build churches. I guess I tend to me more of an idealist as I consider going to a secular financial institution as going to the world and not God. That's not to say I've been perfect in my conviction as I've had one time a mortgage on my house but let's just say I see what Abraham said to the King of Sodom after he had delivered his people and wanted to give him a spoil of the goods.

He basically turned it all down saying he didn't want it ever to be said the king of Sodom made Abraham rich. Gen 14:23 The world sits perched up on it's pride and might say that the Christian churches couldn't make it without them ....not to mention that the saints are paying interests rates or usury. To me it kind of leaves a feel that there's a secular middle man between us and God. A great part of me says this should not be.

God's perfect will I think is for his people to look to him. God also knows however where people are at...if they do so choose to go to the bank which is similar to going down to Egypt for help...well I still think God because of his grace will still help us out along the way....perhaps cause members of the flock to have favor....getting building materials at a great price or having people with great means want to pay down debts in short order. As an idealist though I do think God will say to us in the next world he could have been the sole provider for all things needed for the Kingdom. Maybe I'm wrong on that that he'll say such a thing but we'll see.

 

[tyndale1946]

I don't like the idea of gathering of believers borrowing money from banks to build churches. I guess I tend to me more of an idealist as I consider going to a secular financial institution as going to the world and not God. That's not to say I've been perfect in my conviction as I've had one time a mortgage on my house but let's just say I see what Abraham said to the King of Sodom after he had delivered his people and wanted to give him a spoil of the goods.

He basically turned it all down saying he didn't want it ever to be said the king of Sodom made Abraham rich. Gen 14:23 The world sits perched up on it's pride and might say that the Christian churches couldn't make it without them ....not to mention that the saints are paying interests rates or usury. To me it kind of leaves a feel that there's a secular middle man between us and God. A great part of me says this should not be.

God's perfect will I think is for his people to look to him. God also knows however where people are at...if they do so choose to go to the bank which is similar to going down to Egypt for help...well I still think God because of his grace will still help us out along the way....perhaps cause members of the flock to have favor....getting building materials at a great price or having people with great means want to pay down debts in short order. As an idealist though I do think God will say to us in the next world he could have been the sole provider for all things needed for the Kingdom. Maybe I'm wrong on that that he'll say such a thing but we'll see.

There is merit in what you are saying because before we built our little family church we use to meet in rented facilities... But thanks be to God we had a couple in our congregation that had a piece of land, vacant on their property, they gave to the church... In 1958 the church doors were open and the member pitched in to build it... We had not the expertise to lay the foundation, erect the hazard block structure or put on the roof but we did to put in all the plumbing, lay all the electrical wire and hook it up and put tile on the roof and anything extra the church needed... I remember because I was twelve when I help my Dad do it... So in nutshell the members of the church me included built the church... How many on here can say that?... Brother Glen

 

[Dave G]

Should churches borrow money to build bigger sanctuaries? I say no. What is your opinion?

George Mueller didn't ask anyone for anything, except the Lord.
If God gave him the money to operate something for Him, then He can do it for anyone.

I say "no".

We are the chuerch, so even if we have to met in the kitchen or bathrooms...

That, I like.
Don't get me started on "churches" and "tithing". To me, it's an Old Testament model that never should have carried over into the New Testament...and initially it didn't.


The Church is any gathering of believers under a roof, because the saved are the "lively stones" that make up a spiritual building.
If a gathering is big enough, perhaps one of the rich brothers or sisters could put up a meeting house on their own property.

The Amish do it here in Iowa.

Get a loan?
Reminds me of something a former pastor once said during a Sunday evening message:

"This church is in debt because some of you aren't tithing like you should be."

I about choked...I wanted to tell him, "This church is in debt because you committed to a building program that was a waste of money...money that could be better spent on the things of God." ( The debt was incurred before I joined, having left the church I was converted in not many weeks prior ).

Not long after I left, they split over modernism; and the conservative side went and built...

A new building.
With a $19,000 a month budget.

 

[tyndale1946]

George Mueller didn't ask anyone for anything, except the Lord.
If God gave him the money to operate something for Him, then He can do it for anyone.

I say "no".



That, I like.
Don't get me started on "churches" and "tithing". To me, it's an Old Testament model that never should have carried over into the New Testament...and initially it didn't.


The Church is any gathering of believers under a roof, because the saved are the "lively stones" that make up a spiritual building.
If a gathering is big enough, perhaps one of the rich brothers or sisters could put up a meeting house on their own property.

Get a loan?
Reminds me of something a former pastor once said during a Sunday evening message:

"This church is in debt because some of you aren't tithing like you should be."
I about choked...I wanted to tell him, "This church is in debt because you committed to a building program that was a waste of money...money that could be better spent on the things of God."
Not long after I left, they split over modernism, CCM and translation issues and the conservative side went and built...

A new building.
With a $19,000 a month budget.

The whole congregation is in debt and maybe when you understand the fullness of the debt, then the Lord will allow you to build the building... Brother Glen

 

[Dave G]

Oh, I understand debt quite well, Glen.

So much so, that I prefer never to get into it again.
If I can help it, I pay off fast anything that I borrow.

"And they that use this world, as not abusing [it]: for the fashion of this world passeth away." ( 1 Corinthians 7:31 )

I was once so buried in personal debt, I couldn't get out...then the Lord gave me a new job that paid almost twice as much, and taught me about money the hard way.



But I think I know where you're going with that.

 

[Rockson]

Get a loan?
Reminds me of something a former pastor once said during a Sunday evening message:

"This church is in debt because some of you aren't tithing like you should be."

You see that right there demonstrates such a sad, sad thing. Maybe this minister was very good and sincere (I like to believe the best of folks) but he himself may have been under a lot of pressure financially which depressed him immeasurably moving him to say things he normally wouldn't.

 

[elder_jeffery_endicott]

there are very few situations where a church should go into debt. I would be fine with my home church borrowing some money if our neighbor ever decided to sale his property and the church did not have the money at the time buy the land outright. we really do not have enough parking, but the neighbor allows us to use his property for overflow parking and when someone wants to be baptized in the creek we have to cross his property to get to the creek. If he sold the land to someone else who know what kind of new neighbor we would have then. there is no other circumstance I can imagine that I would be fine with borrowing money.

 

[Salty]

... So in nutshell the members of the church me included built the church... How many on here can say that?... Brother Glen

The church I grew up in, met in the pastors home - then about 3 years later, we bought an old farmhouse -(capacity of about 100) the members did basically all the work to have it prepared for church services. About 3 years later, (circa 1963) the church voted to build a new building The members did about 20-25% of the work. The sanctuary would hold about 250 people. A loan was taken out from the bank - but it was well within the budget. Before building - we had about $5,000 (2018 dollars = 41,000) in the building fund

 

[tyndale1946]

The church I grew up in, met in the pastors home - then about 3 years later, we bought an old farmhouse -(capacity of about 100) the members did basically all the work to have it prepared for church services. About 3 years later, (circa 1963) the church voted to build a new building The members did about 20-25% of the work. The sanctuary would hold about 250 people. A loan was taken out from the bank - but it was well within the budget. Before building - we had about $5,000 (2018 dollars = 41,000) in the building fund

Well Salty I stand corrected, you can say you help build your church... But The Lord added the people... Brother Glen

 

[MartyF]

The church is a people - not a building. You can actually rent public space. I recently went to a church which did this.

For a church, a loan is generally a poor decision. However, I won’t say that there can’t possibly be a reason for a loan.

Marty

 

[HeDied4U]

The church is a people - not a building. You can actually rent public space. I recently went to a church which did this.

For a church, a loan is generally a poor decision. However, I won’t say that there can’t possibly be a reason for a loan.

Marty

I work in the hospitality industry, and I once worked in a hotel that had numerous (and various sized) meeting rooms in the basement. One of the rooms was rented out each Sunday morning to a church. That room was "zoned" for a maximum occupancy of 125 people and we rented it out for $750 for (approximately) four hours of use. I worked Sunday mornings at the front desk, thus had to process the payment. The few times I would look in the room, it looked like it was almost always filled to capacity, and I often wondered how much, if any, of their offering was left after paying for the room (the pastor would come to the front desk after the service with a wad of bills).

The arrangement must work well for them, as I see on their website that they still meet there for their Sunday service, five years after I left that hotel.

 

[Salty]

The church is a people - not a building. You can actually rent public space. I recently went to a church which did this.

For a church, a loan is generally a poor decision. However, I won’t say that there can’t possibly be a reason for a loan.

Marty

1) There are two definitions for church - One is - as your say - the people --- and the second is the building itself.

2) When you rent a building - your rent will include property taxes and of course profit for the landlord.
When you buy your own building - the property is tax exempt.

Note: not saying it is wrong to rent - in fact that may be the way to go with a church start.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't like the idea of gathering of believers borrowing money from banks to build churches. I guess I tend to me more of an idealist as I consider going to a secular financial institution as going to the world and not God. That's not to say I've been perfect in my conviction as I've had one time a mortgage on my house but let's just say I see what Abraham said to the King of Sodom after he had delivered his people and wanted to give him a spoil of the goods.

He basically turned it all down saying he didn't want it ever to be said the king of Sodom made Abraham rich. Gen 14:23 The world sits perched up on it's pride and might say that the Christian churches couldn't make it without them ....not to mention that the saints are paying interests rates or usury. To me it kind of leaves a feel that there's a secular middle man between us and God. A great part of me says this should not be.

God's perfect will I think is for his people to look to him. God also knows however where people are at...if they do so choose to go to the bank which is similar to going down to Egypt for help...well I still think God because of his grace will still help us out along the way....perhaps cause members of the flock to have favor....getting building materials at a great price or having people with great means want to pay down debts in short order. As an idealist though I do think God will say to us in the next world he could have been the sole provider for all things needed for the Kingdom. Maybe I'm wrong on that that he'll say such a thing but we'll see.

We have done all of our borrowing from the church builder fund run by own Church denomination .

 

[Rockson]

I work in the hospitality industry, and I once worked in a hotel that had numerous (and various sized) meeting rooms in the basement. One of the rooms was rented out each Sunday morning to a church. That room was "zoned" for a maximum occupancy of 125 people and we rented it out for $750 for (approximately) four hours of use. I worked Sunday mornings at the front desk, thus had to process the payment. The few times I would look in the room, it looked like it was almost always filled to capacity, and I often wondered how much, if any, of their offering was left after paying for the room (the pastor would come to the front desk after the service with a wad of bills).

The arrangement must work well for them, as I see on their website that they still meet there for their Sunday service, five years after I left that hotel.

Well doesn't look like that Pastor was doing it to get rich for himself which shows good integrity. $750 quite a chunk but when you figure the freedom of not having a church debt, insurances, maintenance, landscaping, roofs to be replaced the freedom of it all obviously was so appealing to him and his group.

 

[JamesL]

.....I believe in debt free living. But unless you personally believe you should never borrow money, you can't say churches can't borrow.

I see merit in this.

I believe churches shouldn't borrow money, and I also believe I shouldn't borrow money.

I pay cash for my vehicles, I have no loans nor credit cards. I'm a self-employed electrician, and I pay for my supplies and materials out of my bank account with my debit card. I currently rent, and plan to build a very small house without any loans.

Would I be opposed to borrowing money for an unforeseen emergency? No, I wouldn't be opposed to that. But I don't think it's a good practice to jump off a cliff knowing there's a rope around your neck

 

[Felipe Rios]

Should churches borrow money to build bigger sanctuaries? I say no. What is your opinion?

What would Dave Ramsey say?

 

[Yeshua1]

Better question, what would Jesus say?

 

[Reynolds]

What would Dave Ramsey say?

Probably say don't borrow.