Should God have compassion?

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;

The Bible teaches that election is to salvation (Eph 1, 2 Thess 2, 1 Tim 2, 1 Peter 1, etc.). If you believe the Bible, then you must believe that the people who Nineveh who were saved were elect. I am not sure what causes you to stumble there, except your preconceived theology.

Excuse me Larry there you go again assuming that I have stumbled. As I told you once before you can never win someone to your side with insults, and scripture that doesn't say what you claim.

You are just not my spiritual Judge. What ever is it that makes you think you are?

I don't believe your arguments are real but are only to incite and harass.

I'm beginning to find it to be encouragement when you judge me of such non sense. It shows even you are effected by what I have to say. Even by my presents on the board. Thankyou

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
I'm amazed that Calvinist are reluctant to admit that the people of Nineveh were not elected. They were not Jews yet God saved them by sending them Jonah and there acceptance and following of the truth of God. Yes God chose to save them, but only because of there repentance and belief in God.

Say what? lets look at this post again.

1) the People of Nineveh were not elected (or choosen)
2) God chose to save them.

In your own words you claim they are choosen by God. He chose THEM before they know of God. Election came before repentance. God SENT!!! Man did not ask for God to come.


Please tell me you do not see this as a point for Mans will to choose.

In Christ...James

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Larry;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Bible teaches that election is to salvation (Eph 1, 2 Thess 2, 1 Tim 2, 1 Peter 1, etc.). If you believe the Bible, then you must believe that the people who Nineveh who were saved were elect. I am not sure what causes you to stumble there, except your preconceived theology.

Excuse me Larry there you go again assuming that I have stumbled. As I told you once before you can never win someone to your side with insults, and scripture that doesn't say what you claim.

You are just not my spiritual Judge. What ever is it that makes you think you are?

I don't believe your arguments are real but are only to incite and harass.

I'm beginning to find it to be encouragement when you judge me of such non sense. It shows even you are effected by what I have to say. Even by my presents on the board. Thankyou

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike</font>[/QUOTE]Not clear to me - especially Eph 1. Which verses do you think supports this statement?

Lloyd

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Larry;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Bible teaches that election is to salvation (Eph 1, 2 Thess 2, 1 Tim 2, 1 Peter 1, etc.). If you believe the Bible, then you must believe that the people who Nineveh who were saved were elect. I am not sure what causes you to stumble there, except your preconceived theology.

Excuse me Larry there you go again assuming that I have stumbled. As I told you once before you can never win someone to your side with insults, and scripture that doesn't say what you claim.

You are just not my spiritual Judge. What ever is it that makes you think you are?

I don't believe your arguments are real but are only to incite and harass.

I'm beginning to find it to be encouragement when you judge me of such non sense. It shows even you are effected by what I have to say. Even by my presents on the board. Thankyou

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike</font>[/QUOTE]Not clear to me - especially Eph 1. Which verses do you think supports this statement?

Lloyd </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Lloyd,

Look at Eph 1. and read the list of blessings we have in Christ.

Verse 3 starts the list...and calls the list spiritual blessings we have in Christ or ways we have been blessed when it comes to our salvation.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Verse 4 tells us how we were 1st blessed..

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

a) When it says in vs 4 "chosen", who is it that chooses? God or man?
b) When did this election take place...before we were born or after we were born?

Verse 5 tells us that all those of the elect of verse 4 are also to be Child of God (back to verse 3) though adoption. Why? to the good pleasure of HIS WILL..(back to verse 4)

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Verse 6 tells us we are blessed for we are now "accepted", where before we were guilty of sin. Why?...because of the praise and glory of HIS GRACE..(back to 4 again)


6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Verse 7 tells us we are bless for we are redemed with his blood. Why? Because of the riches of His GRACE..(back to verse 4 again)

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Verse 8 and 9 tells us we are blessed with understanding. Why? To His Good pleasure which {{{ HE HATH PURPOSED}}} (back to verse 4) in himself

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself


Verse 10 says we are blessed for we now have an inheritance. WHY? for purpose of HIM who worketh all things after the {{{counsel of his own will}}}....(back to verse 4 again)

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


All these things in the list of blessings come "in Christ"..our salvation.

But who gets them? Verse 4...."According as he hath CHOSEN us in him."

{{{{{when?}}}}}}}} "Verse 4 ..before the foundation of the world"


IN Christ.....James

 

[johnp.]

{{{{{when?}}}}}}}}

should read?

{{{{{{{{when?}}}}}}}}



john.

 

[RON35951]

JOHN 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

 

[ascund]

Hey James

You have provided a good, standard, but inadequate Calvinistic exegesis of a critical passage. The trouble with your analysis is that you try to understand the unchanging eternal God in terms of the time sequence. Hence, we see Calvinists struggling through superlapsarian, infralapsarian, and sublapsarian views. This is countered with the inadequate Arminian view of time dependent foreknowledge.

The problems with the Calvinistic view are the assertation of an eternal covenant of grace, faith which logically follows regeneration, denial of human freedom, seeming arbitrariness of God in election, the dismissal of the interaction of God's foreknowledge and the questionable assertion that foreknowledge equals foreloving or choosing. Calvinists see election of the exericse of God's sovereign mind which doesn't take into account His offer of salvation and the free acceptance of all who will believe.

The problems with the Arminian view is an unbalanced dependence on foreknowledge which makes the doctrine of election moot. Arminians make humans do the electing - not God.

Both views, in a cursory way, are based on Bible, but both positions are adverse to one another. My suggestion as a Free Will Theologian is that neither are correct.

We need to slip out of the time dependent reference. God is eternal. It is not a violation of His sovereignty to understand that God’s election (eternally existing and operating) may easily operate, not in conflict with the freedom of man, but to actually operate alongside of or in accord with man’s freedom and responsibility to believe as God affects His election in historical, progressive time.[fn1] He moves this world along according to His purpose and plan toward His destined end.

What God knows He determines, and what He determines He knows. This being so, those who God eternally and unmistakably knows as believers He chooses. Consequently, those who believe are those who He chooses or elects. There need be no before or after, no logical or chronological progression in His eternal knowledge, no decision to elect based on anything except for the carrying out of His eternal decree, which decree was always in place. Therefore, there is no need to 1) postulate an eternal covenant between the members of the Godhead, 2) propose a logical order in relation to whether God’s decisions followed one or the other, 3) ask the question whether or not election is based on foreknowledge or whether foreknowledge of one’s salvation is based on election. As God elects, from His eternal, present tense perspective, He also works out His sovereign purpose within the framework of history on a moment- by-moment basis. His eternal electing activity is applied throughout the progression of history, which He is controlling, and He does so in accord with the ability of men to believe (and without coercion) when the gospel message is clearly presented, when we perceive the free offer of eternal life as most valuable and beneficial to us, and when we are fully assured and convinced by His Spirit that what God has promised, He is able to perform (cf. Rom 4:21).


Lloyd
Much of this taken from: Anthony B. BAdger, "TULIP: A Free Grace Perspective Part 2: Unconditional Election," JOTGES 16:31 (2003); available: http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2003ii/badger.html

[fn1] Geisler, Chosen But Free: A Balanced View of Divine Election (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany, 2001), 69-70, 181-87.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by johnp.:
{{{{{when?}}}}}}}}

should read?

{{{{{{{{when?}}}}}}}}



john.

Thanks john...you know how it is with my spelling
You got me to laugh on that one




I'm back off to work again....Lloyd I'll get back with you after i have to to read your link.

In Christ..James

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi J Authur;
God did not elect the People of Ninevah from before the foundation of the world. and God only changed His mind. He was going to destroy them to begin with. If they didn't change there ways and listen to Jonah.
You have no scripture to prove they were elected. They may have become elect because they listened to Jonah but if they hadn't they would have died and went to hell.
Choosing to save someone because of there actions is clearly displayed here do you deny the word of God?
Aren't you going to say there is nothing man can do to get himself saved?. Yet the Bible is very clear here the Ninevites did. They changed and God saved them for it.
May The Light Of Christ Shine On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ron;
I agree with John 6. I just don't agree with the interpetation of it by some. God drew the Ninevites through the words of God spoken by Jonah.
Care to add what you think as well?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Excuse me Larry there you go again assuming that I have stumbled.

There was no assumption involved. You have demonstrated my assertion time and time again with your denial of these verses in favor of your own theology.

As I told you once before you can never win someone to your side with insults, and scripture that doesn't say what you claim.

Which is why I have never participated in either of these. I have no need to.

You are just not my spiritual Judge. What ever is it that makes you think you are?

??? Where did I ever pretend to be your spiritual judge? I am not your spiritual judge in any way. I can however read the words you say here and evaluate their accuracy. That is all I have done, and I have found them wanting on numerous occasions, as we all have.

I don't believe your arguments are real but are only to incite and harass.

You are incorrect.

I'm beginning to find it to be encouragement when you judge me of such non sense.

I haven't judged of you any nonsense, with the exception of this statement which doesn't make sense.

It shows even you are effected by what I have to say. Even by my presents on the board.

I am not "effected" in the least. The words is "affected" and I am not that either. Nor do your "presents" bother me. In fact, I wish you would bring more presents. But unfortunately you have yet to bring even one. It is your presence that you are referring to, and no, that doesn't bother me either.

 

[Jarthur001]

hi Mike,

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Larry;
You know Larry This thread isn't about me. If you want to disscuss me why not start a thread on the topic.
In the mean time;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi James;

No mike i simply disagree with you..is that ok? now you have made some claims that you do not feel the bible backs my views. Lets consider that on this post.

It's OK to disagree with me James. Seems a lot of people disagree with me. However disagreeing doesn't make them right. The only elect in the O.T. are Jews. That's a fact. You cannot show any other people elected but Jews in the O.T.. Election from before the foundation of the world is a Calvinist belief. The only one ever elected before the foundation of the world was Jesus. I've read all the verses that Calvinist use over and over again to support their views but, Jesus is still the only one elected before He was physically born. All other men do not exist until they are born. You cannot be elected before you exist. Jesus has always existed, you have not.
Have you ever read the first story of the potter and the clay.
Read Jeremiah 18:1-10
God has saved many men because of there actions. Election does not insure Salvation.

Mike check me out on this But I think i used your own words. God CHOSE to send his man to ninevah. That sounds like to me that it was God in control. what do you think?

If you are saved God should be in control of you. How ever, that is only true if you are submissive to Him. However to say that God is in control and God cannot look upon evil, then no one is saved, because we all still sin. If God is in control Christians would not sin anymore. We both know they do, so where is this control? I sorry but the idea that God is in control of every man makes God responsible for all the sin that has ever been committed. This would mean that man is just a pawn made to do what ever it does.
I have no doubt that God could control everything but if He did. Every thing would just be a play. It wouldn't be real. There would be no real Love. No Real life. No real worship. Everything man does would be a play, with no real meaning and no real truth. I'm sorry but God is not in control of man and what man does.

Jonah was swallowed by a fish and yes God was influencing Jonah, but influence cannot be called control. Jonah did take three days in the belly of the fish to change his mind. Jonah resisted God almost to the point where he could have died.
God being in control would not have taken being swallowed by a fish. If God wanted to force the issue as Calvinist claim. All He had to do was speak what Jonah was going to do and he would have. God being in control Jonah would have had no choice to even resist for three days.
The story of Jonah does not show God's control of man. It shows that God has given man free choice of his own destiny.

I for one think God know this from the foundation of the world. You do not. My God is smarter then your god...so there.

What makes you think I believe in a different God?

yes...and God sent Jonah. It was Gods idea..was it not? Did the people ask God to send someone? Did Jonah want to go? That is "scripture"...does this count?

Only if this counts as the election of the Gentiles as a whole.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles , for to provoke them to jealousy.

yes ...and it was a waste of time to send Jonah...because these guys were about saved already. They were down on their faces crying out to the Lord when Jonah....

Trying to pre-state what you think my response is going to be.
Jonah was God's tool for the DRAWING. Through conviction did they change there minds.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[whatever]

Hi Mike,

If you start out wrong then you'll probably end up wrong.

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
... Jesus is still the only one elected before He was physically born. All other men do not exist until they are born. You cannot be elected before you exist.

That's just not true. Here's what the Bible says:

And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

It could not be much more clear than that.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Whatever;

If you start out wrong then you'll probably end up wrong.

Your right and you did. Because this was Prophesy it does mean they didn't exist yet.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[whatever]

Hi Mike,

Never mind. I should have known better.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You know Larry This thread isn't about me. If you want to disscuss me why not start a thread on the topic.

I don't want to discuss you. You are the one who made it about you in the first post on page six. I simply responded to some false charges and misguided comments you made.

 

[Jarthur001]

Mike...
***************
However disagreeing doesn't make them right. The only elect in the O.T. are Jews. That's a fact.
****************
James..
well...no need to keep going around with ya. I showed as you asked...the Bible says...GOD CHOOSE to send. Its up to us to believe. Now that sir..is the facts

Mike......
****************
Election from before the foundation of the world is a Calvinist belief.
James....
****************
Yes...some how john calvin slipped back in time and wrote eph 1 where it says.."choosen before the foundation of the world" and no one noticed he had done this till you brought it up.

Mike...
*****************
The only one ever elected before the foundation of the world was Jesus.
James..
***************
Humm

Mike..
*************
I've read all the verses that Calvinist use over and over again to support their views but, Jesus is still the only one elected before He was physically born.
James..
*************
there is alot to say on this..but i need to get to work. right now...humm#2

Mike...
************
All other men do not exist until they are born.
James..
************
Read Paslms on this...and Job too.

Mike...
************
You cannot be elected before you exist. Jesus has always existed, you have not.
James...
***********
I was only joking as I'm sure you know..about MY GOD is better then your God...because of what you said. Mike...this is no joke. No matter what your views are...never,,NEVER EVERY say God can not do it. God is so powerful that he could have made you 1 hour ago with all your thoughts in place and you not even know it. GOD CAN DO ANYTHING. NEVER put God in your little box and say NO God!! If God wanted to elect before we were born just as the Bible says...He can.

Mike...
***********
Have you ever read the first story of the potter and the clay.
James...
**********
you mean the story about God can do as He wishes? Yes a few verses above it says he CHOOSE one son over another...before they were born. God is very powerful...and can do as He wishes..right Mike?


Mike..
********
God has saved many men because of there actions. Election does not insure Salvation.
James...
*********
Hum. So again you limit God. God will only save based on what we do for God. God will love us...if we love Him.

That is not my God. My God saves with GRACE. Jonah was sent to a wicked nation..that nation was CHOOSEN by God. Election is the same as when we vote. We elect someone to office. We choose someone to serve. God choose that this wicked nation should be saved..and He SENT. How clear can it be? Paul killed many believers. The church FEARED Paul. Yet GOD choose Paul...not based on actions/deeds/works.....but based on grace. ME...JAMES..the guy writing this. God saved ME!! I'm no one. I'm a sinner...and there is NOTHING good in me and my old body. I fight with sin everyday. Yet God saved me anyway. Psalms...."what is man???????????? that thou are mindful of him?????" Why God did you love ME? There was nothing good in ME...yet GOD saved ME anyway. I stand worthless and on my face before God...not know why...but giving all the praise to Him. That is called grace. That is how my God saves.

To say God saves based on works..or actions is missing the point of the LAW. If you do any good at all..anything you have pride. If i build a good dog house and my wife says...good job James...that makes me feel good...and it also makes me feel like "I'm GOOD". It was me that did it...i'm pretty good at building dog houses.

all of our deeds are NOTHING but dung it a price of death of sins. If we have actions/good deeds to salvation, Christ blood becomes not as pure. Christ Blood was the only sure salvation plan. And there is nothing we can do to make Christ blood better.


I need to get to work. I'll read the rest when i get time.


In Christ..James

 

[TexasSky]

Whatever,

I don't know where you took english, but "Should God not have compassion" means "Shouldn't God have compassion" in every quality english class in the nation, so the OP did NOT misquote scripture.