Should I contact the pastor?

[quantumfaith]

Evangelist - what your pastor said was not anti-biblical.

In your view of total depravity, you are apparently fulfilling the old story of the man who found himself on the roof during a flood. He prayed frevently for God to save him. A boat came by, and the people in it asked if he was okay; he replied, "God will save me." A helicopter flew over, and over its loudspeaker he was asked if he needed assistance. Steadfast in his faith, he again affirmed God would save him. As the story goes, this happened a few more times, and each time the man refused, maintaining that God would save him. The man eventually died of dehydration and exposure. Upon meeting God, he implored: "Why didn't you save me?" To which God replied, "I sent you a boat, a helicopter, and other means...."

It's a silly joke, but it exemplifies what you're missing about what your pastor said. He didn't say that people will save themselves, or that you or I will save them, or that wanting what you have will save them. He said that when God draws someone to Himself, He may cause them to hear the sermon of an outdoor evangelist that He placed on a street corner; or He may cause them to notice the happiness of someone who, by the world's standards, has no reason to have joy in their life, causing them to wonder how this is possible; and through that, they hear the Word.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[pinoybaptist]

I do not agree. Man cannot save himself and cannot come to faith based on someones lifestyle, but only by a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. snip.

wonder of wonders, I am in agreement with you on this statement.:thumbsup:
IF by "save" you mean the "save" which Christ did at the cross.
However, recall the exhortation by Peter to those whose hearts were pricked, out of whom about three thousand souls were baptized (Acts 2:40-41): And with many other words did he testify and exhort , saying , Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

And what about Paul, when talking about spouses unequally yoked with unbelieving spouses when they joined the church, to wit: For what knowest thou , O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou , O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? 1 Cor. 7:16.

But your experience is a prime example of why there is so much confusion and disappointments among "unbelievers" and believers.

 

[Inspector Javert]

No one ever said I would cause argument or debate. I have chosen to remain silent.

Really? because as of 11 hrs. ago, you were asking the question as to whether you should contact him or not right??????

Or did I miss something....

Based upon my readings the statements do conflict with Total Depravity as a SINNER cannot redeem himself.

I didn't know the Pastor said a sinner could redeem himself.
Do you allege he did?

In speaking on the doctrine of Total Depravity/Inability a certain author writes in defense of Calvinism the following.

Quote:
It means that the sinner is so spiritually bankrupt that he can do nothing pertaining to his salvation... In short the unregenerate man is dead to sin, and his will is enslaved to his evil nature

.
I propose an experiment:
Write that particular author and ask him/her
Whether the above statement directly contradicts this statement:
When you are living a good Christian life people will get saved as they will want what you have.
Then, please share with us the results of that discussion.

The author also cites lots of scriptures that speak in defense of this,

I can cite lots of Scriptures that speak in defense of the idea that Jesus is God's Son, but not also God. Ask any Jehovah's Witness....

Reading is a good thing:
Reading with comprehension is better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5IQnQhzMSI

 

[sag38]

Please don't live a grace filled, joy filled life before others. They won't see Jesus in you. They can't see Jesus. They are so depraved that the Holy Spirit can't use your positive witness to help them see their need for Jesus. No, the Holy Spirit only uses you if you yell at them from the street telling them that they need to turn or burn or use the "Way of the Master." Those are the only two methods that the Holy Spirit is capable of using.

 

[Aaron]

During the sermon today he said the following.



These comments disturbed me as they undermined the doctrine of Total Depravity for a sinner cannot choose God, for his nature and will are unable to do so without God granting Regeneration which proceeds faith and a response. His other comment was also problematic as it is not us whom does the saving, but God. God does not promise to grant a bunch of decisions just because we are walking with him. Don't know where he got that from. Plenty of Godly people are not seeing people getting saved, but are faithful and out witnessing when able. Are they not living for the Lord due to the lack of responses?

Generally speaking to date I have kept my opinions to myself at this church. Iconlast said its wise to have grace, and a recent Way of the Master Minute devotional spoke about not being judgmental on other christians, but just praying for them, and not following their example. I have had plenty of fights, debates, and arguments in the past when I have acted immature trying to correct people in churches, and in this case perhaps I should just remain silent.

True that some of the books by Mac, Washer, and Comfort are very condemning and judgmental on those whom disagree, but its wise to have grace... Yes indeed grace...What say you?

Should I contact the pastor?

No. In regard to his messages, just accept what is true and reject the error.

 

[Rippon]

He never preaches to offend anyone.

I certainly believe that the message of the cross is offensive to the unregenerate. I very much agree that we are not to be people pleasers(Gal.1:10). Jude 3 tells us to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people." Yet we are not to be contentious. Jesus caused offence with his hard sayings. Preachers will also cause offence if they are true to the Word of God. But to word it like you did:"He never preaches to offend anyone." is not a balanced view.






No offence!

 

[sag38]

I preach the truth and I have had people get mad at me. I have had people leave the church simply because I preached the word. I've been called names and my family attacked because I told the truth. But, I did not deliberately set out to be offensive. That was not my intention and never will be. I am called to preach the word. I do so out of love and compassion for everyone. It is not my desire to offend. It is my desire to be an instrument of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JamesL]

The best way is when he uses the LAW/ 10 Commandments to convict someone of sin. That is the best way for someone to come to faith. Its not the only way, but its the best way. Lots of false converts of the modern gospel presentation out there.

That's one of the things I don't get about you. You seem to want a rational, systematic approach to theology, looking for all the ins and outs of every "bad theology" out there, but you have an theologically inconsistent approach to evangelism.

You claim that you believe Reformed doctrine, as espoused by John MacArthur and others. So in other words, you believe that God does all the work of grace, without any consent on the part of a sinner, and that God's grace is irresistibly extended to those whom God has marked out beforehand to become converted.

Then, you go around purporting this conflicted notion that you're going to browbeat someone with the Law, and coerce him into a "response" of making a "decision" to turn from sin, beg for forgiveness, and submit his life to Christ

How can you agree with such a man-centered gospel when you claim to believe that it is by a sovereign act of God that a man is converted?

Response ?? Decision ?? Where in the world do you read that in scripture ??
That is, after all, what Way of Ray Comfort teaches

The Holy Spirit works in a man to draw him, convict him, enlighten him, and bring about a change of mind (repentance), meaning that the man has been brought from a state of unbelief to a state of belief. And this happens through a preaching of the gospel of Christ, not a gospel of "response". Some plant the seed, and some water the seed, but God makes it grow. And YOU cannot necessarily see what God is doing in the heart of a man, because it's on the INSIDE

THAT is how it works, and then conversion is finished

Those heretics who go around peddling a "response" gospel ought to be ashamed of themselves. Not satisfied with leaving the results to God, looking for instant gratification and bedpost notches.

And you, having twice subjected yourself to sit under this heresy, ought to be ashamed of yourself.

This "response" gospel is what leads to so many false converts. I was trapped in this egocentric theology for 20 years before my pride was broken by GOD, to realize that it did not depend on me and my response or commitment, but it depends 100% on the reality that the Word of God humbled Himself, was made flesh, and died an unjust death in my place to take upon Himself the punishment that I deserve

I first rejected the gospel when I heard it, thinking there has to be something on my part, something I must "do" to either earn, or receive, God's grace.

And even if you use 10,000 words to explain a man's condition, his need for Christ, the merits of Christ's atoning work, how grace is unmerited, and all the great and wonderful things that God has freely given through His Son,

You undo ALL of it with five little words...

"Now If you do this"

You end up gently leading a man all the way to the foot of the cross, only to throw him into the ditch of self effort 6" in front of the Living Waters

So before you continue on this path of exterminating every bad teaching from Christendom, you need to put down all your books and persuasions of men, and recognize the conflicted theology in which you walk.

And you need to apologize to Jesus for looking to Ray Comfort as The Master. Because his method is not Jesus' method

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Should I contact the pastor?

Short answer: Yes, you should talk to the pastor

But-

You should do so in a private and respectful way. The things you have said about him here on this thread, that he preaches not to offend, that he is only concerned with the attendance numbers, that he wants people to stay in the church regardless (regardless of what, their faith?). In an anonymous online thread that may be fine and true, but if you are saying any of those things to other members of the congregation then you need to stop immediately and speak to the pastor first. Don’t say behind his back things you would not repeat in front of him. I believe you and the pastor need to have a private conversation.

I see a lot of problems here evangelist, not the least of which is:

Well I can't leave for the moment until my spouse learns to submit which is a process... Patience and God's wisdom is what I need...

You want your spouse to submit to you, a good thing, but while you have no control over her submission, you have plenty of control over your own leadership. I will ask you this, how can she submit to a husband who does not submit to his own pastor? Are you repeating to her the things you said here? You need to decide first if you can submit to this pastor and allow him to fill that role in your life. If you are not modeling submission in your own life how can you expect it from those you lead?

Now I disagree with the extreme view you hold on total depravity. I believe we have a choice to accept or reject the work of salvation that was performed by Christ on the Cross. I understand that we disagree, I am not trying to change your view at all, I can respect our different beliefs. Likewise you are never going to find a pastor that agrees with you 100% of the time. That does not mean you cannot submit to his leadership and grow and thrive under his ministry. Mutual respect of different ideas can be a strength, not a weakness.

Personally I agree with the Pastor that God uses our lives to influence those around us, and for those who ask, “What about all those Christians living faithfully and not seeing results?” Well there are several answers, one of course is, “Are they living faithfully and consistently?” If that is true then second, we don’t always see the results. A seed grows in the earth long before it sprouts through the surface. Noah preached for hundreds of years without a convert, but yet the entire population of the earth today was saved as a result of him. Just because we don’t see results does not mean they are not there.

Finally, what is your argument, that we should not live Godly lives, or that living godly is a waste of time, surely not. Your argument is with the pastors understanding of total depravity. That was not the topic of his sermon or the point being made in the lines you quoted. Your problem is with what was minor detail of the message. I am not saying total depravity is a minor issue. What I am saying is that was not the main topic he was preaching on. He was preaching on the fact that we should live godly lives.

Sometimes it is better to let the main thing be the main thing.

 

[quantumfaith]

Short answer: Yes, you should talk to the pastor

But-

You should do so in a private and respectful way. The things you have said about him here on this thread, that he preaches not to offend, that he is only concerned with the attendance numbers, that he wants people to stay in the church regardless (regardless of what, their faith?). In an anonymous online thread that may be fine and true, but if you are saying any of those things to other members of the congregation then you need to stop immediately and speak to the pastor first. Don’t say behind his back things you would not repeat in front of him. I believe you and the pastor need to have a private conversation.

I see a lot of problems here evangelist, not the least of which is:



You want your spouse to submit to you, a good thing, but while you have no control over her submission, you have plenty of control over your own leadership. I will ask you this, how can she submit to a husband who does not submit to his own pastor? Are you repeating to her the things you said here? You need to decide first if you can submit to this pastor and allow him to fill that role in your life. If you are not modeling submission in your own life how can you expect it from those you lead?

Now I disagree with the extreme view you hold on total depravity. I believe we have a choice to accept or reject the work of salvation that was performed by Christ on the Cross. I understand that we disagree, I am not trying to change your view at all, I can respect our different beliefs. Likewise you are never going to find a pastor that agrees with you 100% of the time. That does not mean you cannot submit to his leadership and grow and thrive under his ministry. Mutual respect of different ideas can be a strength, not a weakness.

Personally I agree with the Pastor that God uses our lives to influence those around us, and for those who ask, “What about all those Christians living faithfully and not seeing results?” Well there are several answers, one of course is, “Are they living faithfully and consistently?” If that is true then second, we don’t always see the results. A seed grows in the earth long before it sprouts through the surface. Noah preached for hundreds of years without a convert, but yet the entire population of the earth today was saved as a result of him. Just because we don’t see results does not mean they are not there.

Finally, what is your argument, that we should not live Godly lives, or that living godly is a waste of time, surely not. Your argument is with the pastors understanding of total depravity. That was not the topic of his sermon or the point being made in the lines you quoted. Your problem is with what was minor detail of the message. I am not saying total depravity is a minor issue. What I am saying is that was not the main topic he was preaching on. He was preaching on the fact that we should live godly lives.

Sometimes it is better to let the main thing be the main thing.

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[InTheLight]

The best way is when he uses the LAW/ 10 Commandments to convict someone of sin. That is the best way for someone to come to faith. Its not the only way, but its the best way. Lots of false converts of the modern gospel presentation out there.

And how has this technique been working for you?

 

[Judith]

During the sermon today he said the following.



These comments disturbed me as they undermined the doctrine of Total Depravity for a sinner cannot choose God, for his nature and will are unable to do so without God granting Regeneration which proceeds faith and a response. His other comment was also problematic as it is not us whom does the saving, but God. God does not promise to grant a bunch of decisions just because we are walking with him. Don't know where he got that from. Plenty of Godly people are not seeing people getting saved, but are faithful and out witnessing when able. Are they not living for the Lord due to the lack of responses?

Generally speaking to date I have kept my opinions to myself at this church. Iconlast said its wise to have grace, and a recent Way of the Master Minute devotional spoke about not being judgmental on other christians, but just praying for them, and not following their example. I have had plenty of fights, debates, and arguments in the past when I have acted immature trying to correct people in churches, and in this case perhaps I should just remain silent.

True that some of the books by Mac, Washer, and Comfort are very condemning and judgmental on those whom disagree, but its wise to have grace... Yes indeed grace...What say you?

I agree with your pastor. I do not believe that God uses ungodly living to win His elect to Himself. His statement does not hinder the total depravity of man. Ungodly living hinders the man living that way.

 

[evangelist6589]

​

Are you participating in the Crown study?

Yes and loving it. Very Bible based...

 

[evangelist6589]

Please don't live a grace filled, joy filled life before others. They won't see Jesus in you. They can't see Jesus. They are so depraved that the Holy Spirit can't use your positive witness to help them see their need for Jesus. No, the Holy Spirit only uses you if you yell at them from the street telling them that they need to turn or burn or use the "Way of the Master." Those are the only two methods that the Holy Spirit is capable of using.

You are contradicting scripture for Jesus himself said that "we are the light of the world and the salt of the earth." Our testimony only backs up what we say and what we preach. However living a Godly life in and of itself will save no one. We need to PREACH and SPEAK the gospel.

 

[evangelist6589]

No. In regard to his messages, just accept what is true and reject the error.

You have been a sarcastic poster at times, but with this post we can agree... I have decided to keep the peace. The pastor does not preach heresy nor attempt to deceive people. Also if I was very harsh with Arminian I would be a hypocrite as I have many Arminian books.

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree with your pastor. I do not believe that God uses ungodly living to win His elect to Himself. His statement does not hinder the total depravity of man. Ungodly living hinders the man living that way.

If you read what Jesus said, you would see that He himself said that we must have a testimony before men. However that alone without confronting a man on sin, judgment and hell will save no one. A Godly life only interests someone to the gospel.

 

[evangelist6589]

And how has this technique been working for you?

It confronts sin and does the job... People are usually hostile to it, as they are in the darkness and cannot see the light of the gospel without the doctrine of Illumination.

Read these verses
John 2:19
1 Cor 2:6-16
John 16:13

 

[evangelist6589]

That's one of the things I don't get about you. You seem to want a rational, systematic approach to theology, looking for all the ins and outs of every "bad theology" out there, but you have an theologically inconsistent approach to evangelism.

You claim that you believe Reformed doctrine, as espoused by John MacArthur and others. So in other words, you believe that God does all the work of grace, without any consent on the part of a sinner, and that God's grace is irresistibly extended to those whom God has marked out beforehand to become converted.

Then, you go around purporting this conflicted notion that you're going to browbeat someone with the Law, and coerce him into a "response" of making a "decision" to turn from sin, beg for forgiveness, and submit his life to Christ

How can you agree with such a man-centered gospel when you claim to believe that it is by a sovereign act of God that a man is converted?

Response ?? Decision ?? Where in the world do you read that in scripture ??
That is, after all, what Way of Ray Comfort teaches

The Holy Spirit works in a man to draw him, convict him, enlighten him, and bring about a change of mind (repentance), meaning that the man has been brought from a state of unbelief to a state of belief. And this happens through a preaching of the gospel of Christ, not a gospel of "response". Some plant the seed, and some water the seed, but God makes it grow. And YOU cannot necessarily see what God is doing in the heart of a man, because it's on the INSIDE

THAT is how it works, and then conversion is finished

Those heretics who go around peddling a "response" gospel ought to be ashamed of themselves. Not satisfied with leaving the results to God, looking for instant gratification and bedpost notches.

And you, having twice subjected yourself to sit under this heresy, ought to be ashamed of yourself.

This "response" gospel is what leads to so many false converts. I was trapped in this egocentric theology for 20 years before my pride was broken by GOD, to realize that it did not depend on me and my response or commitment, but it depends 100% on the reality that the Word of God humbled Himself, was made flesh, and died an unjust death in my place to take upon Himself the punishment that I deserve

I first rejected the gospel when I heard it, thinking there has to be something on my part, something I must "do" to either earn, or receive, God's grace.

And even if you use 10,000 words to explain a man's condition, his need for Christ, the merits of Christ's atoning work, how grace is unmerited, and all the great and wonderful things that God has freely given through His Son,

You undo ALL of it with five little words...

"Now If you do this"

You end up gently leading a man all the way to the foot of the cross, only to throw him into the ditch of self effort 6" in front of the Living Waters

So before you continue on this path of exterminating every bad teaching from Christendom, you need to put down all your books and persuasions of men, and recognize the conflicted theology in which you walk.

And you need to apologize to Jesus for looking to Ray Comfort as The Master. Because his method is not Jesus' method

James,

Have you ever honestly gave Way of the Master a chance? Have you ever honestly read their books and the dozens of scriptures they reference?

This book is FREE get it

http://www.freewonderfulbook.com

 

[quantumfaith]

​

Yes and loving it. Very Bible based...

Here is a message that you might find beneficial and worthy of your time.


http://northpointministries.org/messages/embed/breathing-room/only/part-3

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You dont agree with the guy then you should get outa the church altogether and find one that suits you.

However I agree with James on this double minded WOTM stuff......first decide who you are in relation to Christ and live it out.