Should pastors have salaries?

Eph 4:11-12 And He Himself gave some to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangalists, and some Pastors, and Teachers. For the Equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

I do not see here that the Pastor is the head guy who trains and equips others. He is one of six different offices in the church, used for that purpose. (Although some churches do not validate the ministry of an Apostle = Missionary) Really each of these have an equal share in equipping the saints, and have an equal share in the offering. I can see a definate case for pulpit time to the Evangalist and the Teacher. The others less. The role of a Pastor is a Shepherd who cares for the flock. His role is counselling, Administrating, watching for false teachers etc.

However each of these roles require equal time to prepare and to do there respective ministry. Who evangalises to the masses in the Bible? Quite often Paul.

You would be right if you think I hate Industrial Capatalism I think it breaks up families in order to introduce a class system into society. In the Early church read about Ananias and his field. Acts 4:34-35. This is the opposite of Capatalism, Sharing what you have. It is the principal in which the church was founded. It is obvuiious to me that the way Capatalism is organised has influenced the Church. All are required to work, Paul made tents in a co-operative. However it is my opinion that the Capatalist money system had done alot to break up families. People work two jobs and still live below the poverty line

I wish we could get back to the system of sharing things with one another. And for all the offices of the Church to work together equally. I can see a case for offerings for the Apostles, that certainley did happen. I am not so sure about a singular offering for a Pastor? I am thinking that an offering would support all those officers in the church who have a need of it.

Teachers and Evangalists need time to prepare sermons, Pastors need time to call on their people. It can be worked out though. I think Pauls example of working as a tent maker is a good example of managment. Some support from offerings, and some support from work is a good system.

 

So, how many tents will you buy?

Cheers,

Jim

Let's see.....How many motorcars would you have to make to pay for your employment at the plant?

 

Why?? That is what the text says. He is not one of "six different offices." The apostle and prophet are not contemporary offices. They were first century offices. I have no idea what you are referring to about the other three. The evangelist (church planter) is one; the pastor-teacher is the other.

Note the job description fo the pastor in 1 Tim 3: He is to be able to teach. Why? BEcause he is the one in the church with the primary role of teaching.

Every believer, if you read the book of acts.

The pastor's salary is paid out of the general receipts of the church. The only other officers in the church are deacons that are generally not paid positions. There are no more offices in the NT church.

Preparing sermons is work, hard work. To suggest that getting paid for preparing sermons is not getting paid for work is out of bounds. I do it because I love it. But it is, bar none, the most difficult and hard task I have ever done.

 

I think the Pastor should be paid. And I think everyone should call on the sick/family/nursing homes/visitations/etc. Everyone should be active in the church. Down to the point of even helping to do the church cleaning.

It is always the same people who help out in everything. No matter what church it is.

Pete....didn't realize you were so talented. Go you!

Sherrie

 

Pastor Larry, Let me say to you that I have nothing but respect for you and for the position that you are in. I find your posts challenging, and well put.

However I disagree with your interpretation of Eph 4:11-12. I dont agree that Apostles and Prophet have finished there ministry. I know that is IFB teaching, but I dont see it. Jesus gave out those offices and did not put them under a time constraint. As I see it these were established by Jesus to be ongoing.

1Tim 3, Desiring to be a bishop. Or as some other versions put it an overseer. To keep it simple lets focus on the KJV use of the word Bishop.

Bishop Strongs no 1985 episkopos, ep-is'-kop-os; A Superintendant, an officer in general charge of the church.

Pastor Strongs no 4166 poimen poy-mane; A shepherd, pastor.

Looking at the greek, these two offices are clearly not the same. The Pastor is to Shepherd. He certainley is not the head guy that equips and trains others.

The other offices in the church are as listed above in my opinion, so there is not to much more I can say on that.

Financial contributiuons for the church are to be distributed according to Acts 4:34-35 there is also a biblical case for food distribution amongst the brethren. Money is not the only form of support.

Jim1999, I already have a tent, and I work in a paint factory?

 

Sherrie, God has given me more up my sleeves than just my arms Now call me radical (it's been done ) but I think He has given every part of the body more up their sleeves than their arms.

When we have an itchy foot, the foot does not have to pay the hand to scratch it

Pete

 

That's very kind of you. I am honored.

But the way that the offices are defined and the role of sign gifts in them show us that they are no longer here. When special revelation ceased in AD95, a "prophet" became non-existent in the true sense of the word. We might today call someone who preaches a "prophet" but that is not the biblical use of the term just as a biblical evangelist is not an intinerant speaker. The apostle was one who had seen Christ. No one after the first century qualifies.

But the Scripture put the roles of overseer, elder, and pastor all on teh same person. Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:1-2 show that these functions are vested in one and the same person. IN Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit made them overseers (Episkopos) to shepherd (poimaino) the flock. In 1 PEter 5:1-2, the elders (Presbuteros) are to shepherd (poimano) the flock of God by exercising oversight (episkopeo). So in the teaching of Peter, the elder was to be the shepherd and the overseer.

These are three titles, describing three functions of the same office. It might be analogous to the fact that a man can be a husband and a father and a grandfather all at the same time.

I agree. I have people who bring us food on a regular basis. Just lack week someone brought us a chicken and some breakfast pastries along with some vegetables. We get taken out to eat by someone probably 3-4 times a month. I have been taken out to purchase suits, shoes, shirts, ties, books ... more than I can remember. So I agree with this. I also agree that we are to help our brothers and sisters in teh church with their needs. So don't think I am negative on this. I am not.

I would return though to 2 Cor 9 where those who preach the gospel are to live of the gospel. That does not negate other responsibilities such as helping the widows, paying the rent, etc. It is one of many things the church is to do.

 

I can't imagine you are suggesting that pastors are not those who preach the gospel. I quite honestly cannot imagine what you are asking here.

IN the context, it is the means of living, just as the ox who plows, the plowman or the thresher who gets part of the harvest for their work.

Both according to the OT. The priests got a part of the burnt offerings and sacrifices as well as a part of the tithes and firstfruits as well as freewill offerings.

Paul clearly states that his example does not set a precedent. If his example set a precedent for all to follow, then we would have to question why 1 Cor 9 is even in the Bible. Why include something that is to be ignored??

It seems to mean that the proclamation ministry of the word is to be honored above other elder ministries.

YOur first question assumes a lot (about which we have disagreed before). Your second assumes that all of them labored well in word and doctrine. There are elders whose primary responsibilities include other things.

Not necessarily but "all good things" cannot be reasonably made to exclude it. The argument is that those who minister spiritually should reap materially.

ONce you get outside the local church you are on your own as far as I am concerned. I can see no reason for someone to support a radio teacher. If his local church wants to pay for him to be on the air, then more power to him. The local church is what God established and what should be supported by the giving of his people.

With due respect to you who I consider a friend, I disagree. I cannot see where the wiggle room is here.

 

I have got alot out of this discussion . I really had some interesting study with the role of Pastor versus Bishop.

Surprisingly Pastor Larry, you have had an influence here I can now see a parallel between a Bishop and a modern Pastor, although I think we could do better on terms.

So there you go I have actually learned something

 

This is a difficult question, and one that I am almost sure will not be answered on this site anytime soon. However, when I think about this subject, I think back to my first day of orientation at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. The words of wisdom that I am about to share with you did not come from the president of that fine institution, nor did they come from a professor nor the secretary of a professor. They came from Ms. Almeda, she was a little black lady from Tylertown, Mississippi who was in charge of all the cleaning crews on campus and this is her quote as best as I can remember it. "There are two types of people that come to seminary, 1)Those that God called and we don't have any problems with them and 2) Those that Mama called and Daddy sent. They are the ones that we want to run south on Seminary place and not stop running till they are outside the front gates." If I had not known it before, I was learning fast that not everyone in ministry shared the same thoughts and opinions about ministry.
I say all that to say this, not everyone in ministry is called to the same type of ministry and therefore there are differences that need to be taken into account for each person. Most Churches don't do that. Most have a salary and some have a pastors home and they are looking for someone who will fit both. The truth of the matter is that most pastors have a family that they must take care of and if the church doesn't do that financially then that money has to come from somewhere. It may be from another job or from the spouse working or some other means.
Dr. Richard Jackson said something one time that I happen to agree with, he said if the pastor is a true man of God, then you can't pay him too much. I agree with that... every pastor who has ever served on a church field knows of areas in his ministry that could use extra money, he knows poor people in his community that don't have food, he knows children that do not have school supplies and if he is being paid enough, and his heart is right he will do the right thing with his money and help those types of people. However it's been my experience that most churches don't ever give their pastors the freedom in that area to find out what they will do with the extra money. A few do, and some of those pastors fail the test, they forget about the poor, home missions, foriegn missions, buying Bibles for the lost in their neighborhood and other true needs and they think they need that BMW, Cadilac, Lincoln, Land Rover or other SUV. And I'm sure they are right.
However... what about the salary.. I've seen salaries that were way too low and salaries way too high. I've seen pastors controled by churches and the salary that they had so that they would not go where God called them to go. It is very seldom that you actually hear of a pastor who "is called" to a church for less money.. Yes I have known some, I'm not saying it never happens.. just saying it is rare.
I am becoming more and more convinced that if we will simply serve by faith, God will meet all our needs and even beyond our expectations.. it says that in the Bible somewhere.. But for the most part we as Baptists.. especially Southern Baptists don't teach faith. Maybe that's our problem, for the Bible says that without faith it's impossible to please him.
In our mission organization, I get a set amount when we have it.. but if we don't then I don't receive it. Last year there were several months I didn't get my huge salary of $1,000.00 per month. But God was always faithful. We always had food on the table and I'm doing what he called me to do. So I guess I don't have a guaranteed salary.. I have a "if" salary.. If it's there I get it, and if not I don't.
One final note, I've seen many more problems originate from churches controlling the man of God with his salary. They don't understand why they pay the pastor. You don't pay a pastor to minister or to visit people. The pastor is called of God to do the will of God and you pay the pastor so that he can be able to do the will of God in your community. If he's not doing his job (following the will of God)then God will take care of him, and if he is doing everything that God wants him to do, then God will take care of him. And that's all I have to say about that.... as Forest Gump says.. Don't worry so much, God's still in control.. Hey it was 75 degrees here in lovely Tegucigalpa, Honduras today.. if your in the neighborhood drop by.. Bro. Tim