Should the Baptist Board...?

[Calminian]

Consider perhaps shutting down the Calvinism/Arminianism debate forum?

I'm asking this question exclusively to the Baptists still on this site.

When I first came to this website, I saw it as a place to meet and discuss the Bible with conservative, like-minded Christians who believed in Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. That was a long time ago, but especially recently it seems that BaptistBoard has gotten a bit overrun by people who just want to argue about Calvinism and Arminianism all day long.

They bicker, they argue, and no matter how long their posts get it never leads anywhere. I feel like it's causing the website to become a toxic environment, where it's getting harder and harder to find a discussion that isn't about Calvinism or Arminianism. I feel like in doing so, this website is straying away from its original purpose. If someone wants to create a separate website to fight about those things, then maybe that would be better than cluttering the BaptistBoard with endless posts that I feel just don't get anywhere.

This is just a thought I had to try and simmer down all the tension that's built up as of late. I feel like the BaptistBoard just isn't Baptist anymore, and I might start looking for something else if something doesn't change. I'd love to hear your thoughts, though. Thank you all and God Bless!

I think your idea of shutting down debate is much more dangerous. God knew there would be disagreement and debate, and even gave guidelines for it in Romans 14. While I get the concern, frankly, I think most handle themselves well in this debate. There are a few that could be nicer, but it's a biblical issue that needs to be hashed out and wrested with. I don't think God would have revealed the doctrine of predestination if he wanted us to ignore it.

OTOH, the idea of shutting down a biblical debate entirely raises many more red flags with me.

 

[MartyF]

I would like it if the BB would stop featuring every single thread on the Calvinism/Arminianism forum on the main page.

 

[1689Dave]

Consider perhaps shutting down the Calvinism/Arminianism debate forum?

I'm asking this question exclusively to the Baptists still on this site.

When I first came to this website, I saw it as a place to meet and discuss the Bible with conservative, like-minded Christians who believed in Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. That was a long time ago, but especially recently it seems that BaptistBoard has gotten a bit overrun by people who just want to argue about Calvinism and Arminianism all day long.

They bicker, they argue, and no matter how long their posts get it never leads anywhere. I feel like it's causing the website to become a toxic environment, where it's getting harder and harder to find a discussion that isn't about Calvinism or Arminianism. I feel like in doing so, this website is straying away from its original purpose. If someone wants to create a separate website to fight about those things, then maybe that would be better than cluttering the BaptistBoard with endless posts that I feel just don't get anywhere.

This is just a thought I had to try and simmer down all the tension that's built up as of late. I feel like the BaptistBoard just isn't Baptist anymore, and I might start looking for something else if something doesn't change. I'd love to hear your thoughts, though. Thank you all and God Bless!

I don't think anyone enjoys the stress of arguing. I would rather be placed on "ignore". But I believe we are to preach the gospel to all. And Calvinistic sin and grace is the gospel of grace. So we can seclude ourselves and preach to the choir only. Or accept the challenges that always come along with the gospel.

 

[church mouse guy]

I don't think anyone enjoys the stress of arguing. I would rather be placed on "ignore". But I believe we are to preach the gospel to all. And Calvinistic sin and grace is the gospel of grace. So we can seclude ourselves and preach to the choir only. Or accept the challenges that always come along with the gospel.

Merry Christmas, 1689 Dave!

 

[Reformed1689]

I would like it if the BB would stop featuring every single thread on the Calvinism/Arminianism forum on the main page.

Isn't that just an automatic function based on number of posts?

 

[agedman]

I don't think anyone enjoys the stress of arguing. I would rather be placed on "ignore". But I believe we are to preach the gospel to all. And Calvinistic sin and grace is the gospel of grace. So we can seclude ourselves and preach to the choir only. Or accept the challenges that always come along with the gospel.

Dave,

I wasn’t going to reply, but you assume sin of only one group.

Just because you may disagree with how a certain group views soteriology, does not present that group as presenting sin.

The exception is that Pelagic thinking which is held as heretical.

The excessive non-cal sin is just as much sin as the hyper-cal sin.

You may disagree. But a thoughtful believer will search the Scriptures for consistency and balance.

But that is exactly why the C&A forum experiences are very good.

It is a place where foundational truth is presented in which any believer may review for Scripture validation.

 

[37818]

The problem is not the BaptistBoard, the problem is within the Christians brothers and sisters who 1) are narrow minded and cannot see beyond their own brand of theology, 2) have a competitive faith and want to win at all costs, and 3) are immature.

This is not a fair assessment.

What would be a fair assessment?

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,

I wasn’t going to reply, but you assume sin of only one group.

Just because you may disagree with how a certain group views soteriology, does not present that group as presenting sin.

The exception is that Pelagic thinking which is held as heretical.

The excessive non-cal sin is just as much sin as the hyper-cal sin.

You may disagree. But a thoughtful believer will search the Scriptures for consistency and balance.

But that is exactly why the C&A forum experiences are very good.

It is a place where foundational truth is presented in which any believer may review for Scripture validation.

Calvinism and Arminianism are complete opposites. Only one is true.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinism and Arminianism are complete opposites. Only one is true.

Possibly. Technically the options are One is true or Neither are true. But you are correct, both cannot be true.

 

[1689Dave]

Possibly. Technically the options are One is true or Neither are true. But you are correct, both cannot be true.

What's the other possibility? It comes down to Pelagianism VS Augustinianism.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

What's the other possibility? It comes down to Pelagianism VS Augustinianism.

Show me the Bible verse that says that we have to choose any of these "-Isms"? How about reading the Bible through from beginning to end and just believing all that it says.

None of these 'isms' will save you anyways. The only way to salvation is through believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you're trusting on being Baptist, Calvinist, Arminian, Peleganist, Pentecostal, or any other doctrinal title to be saved then you have a big problem on your hands.

 

[1689Dave]

Show me the Bible verse that says that we have to choose any of these "-Isms"? How about reading the Bible through from beginning to end and just believing all that it says.

None of these 'isms' will save you anyways. The only way to salvation is through believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you're trusting on being Baptist, Calvinist, Arminian, Peleganist, Pentecostal, or any other doctrinal title to be saved then you have a big problem on your hands.

You must form a conclusion about what you read or it is meaningless. Calvinism and Arminianism form two entirely different conclusions about what the bible says about sin and grace. The might be considered two different Christianities. Be safe and draw no conclusions? Or seek the truth instead?

 

[JonC]

Consider perhaps shutting down the Calvinism/Arminianism debate forum?

I'm asking this question exclusively to the Baptists still on this site.

When I first came to this website, I saw it as a place to meet and discuss the Bible with conservative, like-minded Christians who believed in Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. That was a long time ago, but especially recently it seems that BaptistBoard has gotten a bit overrun by people who just want to argue about Calvinism and Arminianism all day long.

They bicker, they argue, and no matter how long their posts get it never leads anywhere. I feel like it's causing the website to become a toxic environment, where it's getting harder and harder to find a discussion that isn't about Calvinism or Arminianism. I feel like in doing so, this website is straying away from its original purpose. If someone wants to create a separate website to fight about those things, then maybe that would be better than cluttering the BaptistBoard with endless posts that I feel just don't get anywhere.

This is just a thought I had to try and simmer down all the tension that's built up as of late. I feel like the BaptistBoard just isn't Baptist anymore, and I might start looking for something else if something doesn't change. I'd love to hear your thoughts, though. Thank you all and God Bless!

The two most heated sections are the Cal/Arm and politics section. Both involve very personal philosophies and ideologies. We expect some heat.

The problem comes in with people who lack the ability to discuss doctrine in a mature, Christ-like manner. That said, I think you should expect more argument than fellowship on those two sections because the topic is so devisive.

Some are here looking for an echo chamber and cannot handle the fact others do not share their opinions.

In other words, the Cal/ Arm section ain't the place to hang out and eat chicken because sooner or later you'll get hit by a stray insult.

My advise it to stay away from the section and enjoy the rest of the board. It is a debate that has gone on for centuries and it's importance is inverse to its prominence on the forum.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I think so. None of the Admin "features" threads manually. .

Isn't that just an automatic function based on number of posts?

 

[Calminian]

I would like it if the BB would stop featuring every single thread on the Calvinism/Arminianism forum on the main page.

I think this is definitely a case of soteriophobia.

 

[Dave G]

This is just a thought I had to try and simmer down all the tension that's built up as of late. I feel like the BaptistBoard just isn't Baptist anymore, and I might start looking for something else if something doesn't change.

Try not to worry too much...
Something is about to change.

Show me the Bible verse that says that we have to choose any of these "-Isms"? How about reading the Bible through from beginning to end and just believing all that it says.

That, good sir, is the source of the problem.
People come up with differing viewpoints on major doctrines when they do as the highlighted part of your quote says to do.

As long as there is a Bible that can be read freely, the visible professing church will always be this way.

Time is very short, however.
Based on the rate of apostasy, I'd say we have no more than roughly 10-30 years, at the outside, before He comes again.

None of these 'isms' will save you anyways.

Agreed.

The only way to salvation is through believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearing all the doctrinal issues out of the way, I again agree with you.

If you're trusting on being Baptist, Calvinist, Arminian, Peleganist, Pentecostal, or any other doctrinal title to be saved then you have a big problem on your hands.

For a third time, I agree.
But I think that the problems are far and away too large to simply be stated with generalizations.

In addition, if you're looking for an ecumenical approach where we can all join hands and simply ignore the various doctrinal differences, I don't think that that will happen anytime soon.
Contending for the faith once delivered unto the saints has always been tense, and will continue as such until forums like this are outlawed and the "Calvinists" are finally silenced.

Then I think that you will have your solution.

One thing to consider...

If you think that what happens in the "CvA" section on this board is bad, those of us that are labeled as "Calvinists" ( prior to that usage, I think it was the term, "Lollards" and then "Dissenters", if I'm not mistaken ) are certainly glad that this is not the 15th and 16th centuries in England and the rest of Europe, or most of us would be dead right now.
That was the agreed-upon solution for the time...

Kill all the "Lollards" / "Dissenters" / "Calvinists" , and then things would get back to normal.
As I see it, it worked very well... if only for short periods.
In fact, once exceptionally long period of peace in France was right after the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of 1572, when thousands of Huguenots ( "Calvinists" ) were killed across France by the Catholic-backed authorities and general populace in one day.

But then every time someone picked up a Bible, started reading it for themselves and then preaching what they learned, the whole cycle would start all over again.
That's pretty much why private possession of the Bible was outlawed early on, by the religious institutions of those days.

And, in case you're wondering...

No, I'm not being dramatic, and no, this is not satire or sarcasm.
This is me suggesting that you to read up on the history of the religious wars during the Protestant Reformation, and Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

It's all quite educational.

 

[Van]

Consider perhaps shutting down the Calvinism/Arminianism debate forum?

I'm asking this question exclusively to the Baptists still on this site.

!

When the Cal/Arm forum was opened (or reopened) the idea was to shunt the constant bickering threads off the main topic forums. However, threads that support Calvinist doctrine are constantly opened by well known Calvinists on the other main forums, and they are not moved to the Cal/Arm forum.

Today, on the Home page we have 5 threads out of 10 on the Cal/Arm forum.

But if we look at the threads posted by the well known Calvinists or their opponents, we find even more threads such as
The Ability Or Inability To Welcome Divine Truth pushing total spiritual inability or
Does Reformed theology require one to murder heretics apparently attacking Calvinism.

And then we have threads started on one track, but are then diverted to the Cal/Arm track such as:
How does a non-believer make sense of the Bible?

Bottom line, the theological divide permeates our understanding of what scripture teaches on a wide array of topics.

 

[just-want-peace]

"We'll understand it better by and by"! PERIOD
And, IMHO, EVERYBODY on each side is going to have to apologize to EVERYBODY else on the other side!!!!

My personal belief is that there is room for BOTH to be true IN SOME WAY, that our finite brains fail to comprehend while housed in this lump of clay!!

MARANATHA

 

[agedman]

Calvinism and Arminianism are complete opposites. Only one is true.

Actually they are not.

Both endorse a form in the limit of atonement being for believers God did not atone everyone. Some do not believe, others do.

Both endorse a form of election and predestination. The words are in the Bible.

Both endorse a form of total inability. That is no one can out of their own volition independent of any work of God be saved.

Both endorse a form of irresistible grace. Some call it “prevenient/preceding grace” but such grace cannot be held as conjured up or at the will of humankind. The unmerited favor of God is solely dependent upon God, not man.

Both endorse a form of the perseverance and preservation of the saints. It is (I on) unfortunate that some cling to OSAS in hope that those who “professed,” yet have never born fruit, remained saved. We all agree that thinking is unScriptural.

The specifics may be areas in which are decisively contended, but those that deny that the basic teaching of both the C&A cling to those 5 principles are ignorant of the basic teaching of Baptist’s and seek only their own agenda driven puffery.

A lot less heat would be found if folks worked for areas of unity and discerned the differences not as a matter of opposite and opposition, but allowing Scriptures to be the standard.

The single false premise that would help is if all would agree that there are two estates. Those traded upon the slave market of sin in which the fleshly desires spare no consequence. Or, those redeemed and adopted as heirs.

As such there is no total “freedom of the will.” If there were, there would be no need for the unScriptural teaching of prevenient/preceding grace.

The teaching of such stands as proof no such freedom of the will exists.

 

[Van]

The biblical view differs from 4 or the 5 points of the TULIP, endorsing only OSAS. The biblical view agrees with Arminianism on two points, Christ died for all mankind, and God chooses individuals for salvation based on faith. But both Cal/Arm believe our individual election occurred before creation, a bogus view, both believe in total spiritual inability until corrected by irresistible or prevenient grace, another bogus view.