Should there be any limits to supporting Israel?

I may condemn a country's actions while still supporting that country, and their leaders, with prayer and I believe that MUCH FERVENT prayer is needed concerning Israel's present state.

 

This thread isn't about other countries. It's about Israel.

 

Maybe not supportive prayer Joseph (in their evil deeds) but redeeming prayer.

I often pray for the Islamic nations that the Father reveal Christ to them.

Why not? with God all things are possible.

HankD

 

What policies are your referring to?

 

These questions were already answered by KeithS & I said I agree with what he posted. In case you missed it, it was posted about 5 pages or so ago:

 

As for me, I would have to be given specific things that Israel might do before I could say that crosses the line. Roger (C4K) and others here, make the separation of the State of Israel and God's chosen-the Jews. This is not surprising-there are some Jewish groups that do not particularly support the Nation of Israel either. But I cannot totally divorce the Jewish people from the nation of Israel however. The nation and the government are dominated by Jacob's descendants. Also, I look at the wars Israel has had to fight and (while I will not say dogmatically) it would appear that they had help in their conflicts.

 

Joseph you are parsing words. To condemn a policy that is immoral is not the same as not supporting Israel.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says we should support all nations of the world?

Can you show me in the Bible where God has made the same promises to any other nation in the history of the world as He has made to Israel?

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth beblessed.

Can you show me in the Bible where God has said any other nation is the "apple of God's eye?"

No, of course not. God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for His purposes. He made the choice. He made the Covenants.

Zech 2:[8] For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
[9] For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
[10] Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
[11] And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
[12] And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
[13] Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

Either we believe God's Covenants are Everlasting as He says and believe what He says about Israel, or we don't. I do. I will always support Israel, as I've stated before.

You asked some questions in your OP. Several of us have attempted to answer your questions to the best of our ability and after 10 pages, it would seem you have your answers. If those answers do not meet your expectations or clarify the matter enough, then I don't know what more can be said - the issue is going around and around in circles, based upon your presuppositions and conjectures of what Israel may or may not do. What Israel does or does not do is not up to me. It is in God's Hands. As God's Child, I believe Genesis 12:3 and Zech. 2:8 at their face value because God said it, so it's a settled matter for me. I have peace about it because I know it's true, God does not lie. If you choose not to believe it, then that is between you and God.

 

Joseph, a very interesting and relevant thread. A few observations.
I find it strange that many feel the Israel of Genesis and the Old Covenant is the same Israel of today. Understandable I guess being a former dispie I also held this belief since it was indoctrinated in me since childhood. Gen 12:3 is given as some sort of proof that we should support modern Israel:

Gen 12:3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

This verse was a promise God made and kept:


Act 3:25 Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:



If one believes the Israel of today is the same of the Bible then what did Jesus say towards them?

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Read the entire 23rd chapter for a more descriptive view of what Jesus thought.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Now, when has anyone ever heard the late Zola Levett or John Hagee ever quote these passages when dealing with the “apple of God’s eye”? Jesus even goes as far as saying they are not even Jews. Perhaps Paul was right when he gave a definition of a Jew:

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now, I wonder if this statement applies to the passages in Mathew 23 and Revelation 2&3:

The Israel of the OT and to whom Jesus referred no longer exists. Most if not all of those in modern Israel today are not descendents of the 12 tribes to whom Gen 12 is referring. You cannot take the Israel of Gen.12 out of the context of the Old Covenant. God’s chosen people were contained in natural Israel in the OT, though not all of those in natural Israel were His chosen. Today His chosen are found in His Church, and all in His Church are chosen.

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).
Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

Perhaps we should define “Israeli”. If I convert to Judaism and move to Israel, am I know a part of the Israel of Genesis 12? Or does one have to be a blood descendant of Abraham?

Carry on Joseph.

 

Actually Jesus was speaking to the scribes and Pharisees in that passage which has nothing to do with whether or not the Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible. But you get "E" for effort. :flower:

 

And you know this, how? DNA has proven that some are direct descendants of the tribe of Levi. I have posted those articles for you in other threads some time ago. Some day, scientific technology may catch up and be able to trace the DNA from all 12 tribes.

Where is "natural Israel?"

I do not hold to the erroneous doctrine of "Replacement Theology" which originated when Gentiles took over as the "Early Church Fathers" from the Jews. Jesus is a Jew. Paul was a Jew (although a Roman citizen). The apostles were Jews.

http://www.cephas-library.com/replacement_theology/replacement_theology_history.html

 

The Jews today reject Jesus just as the scribes and Pharisees did. Are Jesus’ statements not applicable to the Jews today? Were the scribes and Pharisees the “apple of God’s eye”? Why do you try to distance from the statements of Jesus?

Do a little study of who the people in Israel are today. You will find most are descendants of people who converted to Judaism about 1300 years ago.

“Israel in Bible Prophecy” by John Bray would be a good starting point.

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

I bet DNA will someday trace me back to Adam. Of course there are descendants of the 12 tribes living today. Does that make them Jews of the Bible? If I find out I have DNA from the tribe of Levi does that mean I am part of the promises made to Old Covenant Israel?

I ask again, if I convert to Judaism and move to Israel, does that make me one of the children of promise?

"


Long gone.

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

Neither do I.

 

So, what are you saying GH, that the Jews living in present day Israel are fake Jews?

 

The Hezbollah are classic terrorists.
The Hezbollah hates Israel's military so they kill
unarmed Israeli Civilians and unarmed Lebaneese Civilians.

The Israel Military are classic militrary,
they strike military targets of the armed
forces of the Hezbollah.

The USA is aginst terrorists where ever they rise up,
including in Lebanon.