Should there be any limits to supporting Israel?

No.

I didn't want my opinion to get tainted by facts :smilewinkgrin:

 

Ahhh...the old anti-semitic Khazar Jew conspiracy, eh?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/Khazars.html

It makes them descendants of the Nation of Israel of the Bible, to include Jews (from Judah) and the other tribes. Paul came from the tribe of Benjamin (the light bearers), interestingly enough.

Sure.

No. Converting to Judaism has nothing to do with it. It's in the blood line.

When you claim the Church has replace Israel, that is the what the "doctrine" of "replacement theology" is all about. You may want to reconsider your view. If you don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel, please clarify. Perhaps I misunderstood your previous post.

 

Do they practice Biblical Judaism? Easy yes or no question.

Conspiracy?

It used to be argued that the Khazars could not have sincerely adopted Judaism if they still had good relations with the Christian Byzantines even in the late 8th century. But historical analysis cancels this argument by showing that the decline in the Byzantine-Khazar relationship is tied directly to the time of the Khazar conversion to Judaism, and may be dated as occurring sometime during or after the 830s. A conversion date in the mid-to-late 830s is supported now also by the Moses coin (discussed below) which dates from 837-838, whereas just a few years earlier (around 834) the Khazars and Byzantines were cooperating on building Sarkel.
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-issues.html

I was wondering when the “anti-semetic” charge would rear its head.

Dispies believe 2/3rs of the Jews will be slaughtered in the tribulation:

The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried" (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah. [John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, [1962] 1988), p. 108.

Yet it is these very dispies who are paying the way for these Jews to get to their slaughterhouse destination and helping God along in His fulfillment of prophecy:

With large-scale emigration finally possible, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews launched a new major program, On Wings of Eagles, to transport these Jews on Freedom Flights to the Holy Land. To date, hundreds of thousands of Soviet Jews have made aliyah (emigrated to Israel) through this initiative.
“For centuries, Jews read the biblical prophecies that foretold the return of the Jewish exiles to their homeland of Israel,” said Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, founder and president of the Fellowship. “Today, this is taking place before our very eyes.”
Through their generous donations to Wings, The Fellowship’s friends have brought hundreds of thousands of Jews to the Holy Land. By funding this “second exodus” of Jews from oppression to freedom, Fellowship donors are showing their compassion and concern for the Jewish people.
http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_wings


Do you think as the Jews are boarding the plane to go to their “homeland” that those wonderful people from On the Wings tell them, “By the way, 2 out of 3 of you will die horrible deaths in the near future, and those that survive will become Christians. Have a nice flight”.

So ask the nearest Rabbi which of us is anti-semetic.

Again, is the Judaica Encyclopedia anti-semetic?

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem(1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

So when those Jews step off the free plane ride those good, loving Christians have provided for them which are the "real" Jews? The black ones that come in from Africa? The white ones that came from Europe? Or perhaps the olive skinned one who are native to the area? Were the sons of Abraham all different colors? Does this look like a pure bloodline?

 

That would be the same Paul that wrote to Timothy this:

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Titus seemed to agree:


Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Yet according to you, genealogies are very important.

So what will I get?

So it’s not about faith, it’s about bloodline. So anyone who is a descendant of people who converted to Judaism do not count. What about all those who married into Israel in the OT and their descendants? What about the proselytes? Just how much Jewish blood does it take? 100%? 50%? Just a trace?

The Torah makes provision for foreigners to become a part of Israel, so it is possible to be "Jewish" and have any sort of physical ancestry at all.

On the other hand, it is possible for someone who has no "Jewish blood" at all to become a convert to the Jewish religion. Such a person is also considered "Jewish" For centuries now, the rule has been that if at least the mother is Jewish, so are the children.
http://www.amfi.org/mailbag.htm

So are you telling me the people in modern Israel can trace their bloodline back to the OT? Are you also telling me their has been no dilution of the bloodline since their dispersion in AD70?


Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

I’ve never stated the Church replaced Israel. The Church is the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel. The “Replacement Theology” charge is nothing more than an attempt by dispies to build a straw man. I know of no preterist who believes the Church replaced Israel. Too bad those in the dispie movement don’t actually take the time to learn their opponents views before commenting on them.

You never answered my question, do the statements of Jesus in Matt 23 and Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 still apply to the Jews today? If not, why not.

Before I would throw my unconditional blind support behind a nation on Biblical grounds, I think I would make very sure the people who make up that nation are who I think they are. Are they the “apple of God’s eye” or a Synagogue of Satan?

Support Israel for geo-political reasons as Joseph and I do, not on the basis of a false eschatological view.

 

You never did answer my question, GH - are the Jews living in Israel fake Jews?

You also failed to mention, when you were blasting On Wings of Eagles, and other groups transporting Jews to the Holy Land, that 1/4 of the earth will be destroyed during the Great Tribulation and then after that 1/3 of the earth will be destoryed during the Great Tribulation. It won't be just Jews who are destroyed - the whole earth will be involved. Also, you failed to mention the 144,000 sealed (Jews) from the 12 tribes who will be evangelizing and the Two Witnesses who will be evangelizing and many will be saved. It would help if you painted the complete picture instead of the "choice" sections you want to pick and choose.

Evangelical Christians are the Nation of Israel's closest ally and friend, trying to reach the lost people of Israel because we do believe the Nation of Israel is the Israel of the OT. And they are still the "apple of God's eye." Proof in the pudding is how much the world hates that tiny little nation about the size of the state of New Jersey and how much railing is done against her, even on this Board.

God must think they are important, too. Geneologies are listed throughout the entire OT and the NT also contains geneologies. The verse in Titus was referring to false prophets in Crete who were tearing up the church. It does not prove the point you are trying to make.

Are you saying they should all stay in Russia where they have been tortured, persecuted, butchered (genocide) under Communism for 70 some years? Nice choice.

Joseph started this thread because he said he wanted to know why dispies believe as they do. I have no wish to debate with you on the End Times - been there, done that.

 

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=107923

 

LE,
I like your position on Israel. Very healthy for our country to follow.

 

Bless "Israel"?????

Um...I realize I do not check in very often these days, but this thread intrigued me.
My buddy, Joseph, can usually be counted on to come up with a good one.
I only read the first page but that was enough to discern that this thread (among many on this board) is off on a tangent with absolutely no Biblical support.

To begin with;
The promise: "bless those...curse those..." was never given to Israel. It was given to Abram.
Ge 12:1
¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Ge 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Ge 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

You will notice that the promise is to an individual...not the nation. Isn't the King's English wonderful for figuring things out?
'Thee' = you...singular. NOT...you- plural.

Therefore, this thread is all about taking something out of context so that one might appear all pious or something. I don't know where it got started that because God made a promise to Abram that it by extension applies to the apostate Israel, but it most certainly does not.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am all for Israel's right as a nation to defend itself, but some promise made to Abram long ago does not apply here.

We as a nation ought to support Israel only so long as they are just in their dealings with others, both internationally and internallythe same as we ought to for any other nation. THAT my friends is the 'christian' thing to do.

And just because they call themselves "Israel", it doesn't make it so.
Re 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Even so...Come, Lord Jesus.

 

Yes, biblically speaking:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

The reason I failed to mention it is because I don’t believe the dispie interpretation.

Are they still the synagogue of Satan?

Rev 2:9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Are they still the offspring of vipers?

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Remember now, paint the complete picture, not just the “choice” sections.

I'm just asking for consistency. If things said of Israel were true in Genesis and God's word is true, them it seems consistency demands the statements of Jesus are also true if the Israel of today is the same Israel of the OT and of Jesus' day. But as I stated earlier, you don't see these verses quoted much by John Hagee or Jack VanImpe.

And why were those genealogies important? And why did they become unimportant after the New Covenenant?

.

I don't think that is the reason dispies are flying them to Israel. We both know why.

That is what I am trying to figure out.

1. You never answered my question, do the statements of Jesus in Matt 23 and Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 still apply to the Jews today? If not, why not.

2. So are you telling me the people in modern Israel can trace their bloodline back to the OT? Are you also telling me their has been no dilution of the bloodline since their dispersion in AD70?

3. So anyone who is a descendant of people who converted to Judaism do not count. What about all those who married into Israel in the OT and their descendants? What about the proselytes? Just how much Jewish blood does it take? 100%? 50%? Just a trace?

 

Joseph is always a “must read.”:thumbs:

Bingo! Some would rather hold to a pet doctrine than accept the obvious.

 

Where is the Chronicler? This must be a first. Grasshopper and Av1611jim are in agreement.

I s'pect we will part company though when it comes to application...
(Been there already)
Love ya' Bro!!!

 

Ditto here, Roger!! Years ago I hear the late, great J. Vernon McGee say something along the same lines---there are more bonafied Jews living in NYC than in the whole country of Israel proper.

So--I ditto Roger here!

 

OBE (overcome by events)

Bro. McGee was correct, when he said that.
About 1992 McGee became incorrect.
There are now more bonafied Jews living in Israel
than in New York City.

 

So, since Holocaust survivers settled the State of Israel created in 1948, are you claiming they were fake Jews exterminated in the Holocaust?

Where are the "real Jews" in the world today, if some are not migrating to the Nation of Israel?

And when will these "real Jews" begin to settle in the State of Israel, or will they? Or is the OT Nation of Israel disbanded and dispersed forever, never to be a nation again?

 

I answered once, but I will do so again. According to the Bible, which is all I care about, the real Jews are:


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

OT Israel fulfilled its purpose and is no more.


1. You never answered my question, do the statements of Jesus in Matt 23 and Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 still apply to the Jews today? If not, why not.

2. So are you telling me the people in modern Israel can trace their bloodline back to the OT? Are you also telling me their has been no dilution of the bloodline since their dispersion in AD70?

3. So anyone who is a descendant of people who converted to Judaism do not count. What about all those who married into Israel in the OT and their descendants? What about the proselytes? Just how much Jewish blood does it take? 100%? 50%? Just a trace?

4. Are they still the synagogue of Satan?

Rev 2:9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

5. Are they still the offspring of vipers?

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

 

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

Since it is clear you have no intention of answering my questions, perhaps just a simple yes or no to this:

Are they still the synagogue of Satan?

 

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Cohanim-DNA-Connection.htm


http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/jewish_genes.htm


http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp

 

Not according to Romans 11.
What you are advocating is Replacement Theology, a theology which I consider heretical. Has the "church" replaced Israel, so that Israel no longer exists? It is absurd to even think such. When Christ comes again at the Second Coming (not the rapture), He will be coming for the nation of Israel. They will look upon him whom they have pierced. "So then all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26). That doesn't refer to me; I am already saved. But it is future Israel that this verse is speaking about. Israel was made a nation once again in 1948. From 70 A.D. up until that time they were dispersed all over the world as a nation. But now they are a nation. How can you deny a people whose name is in the news everyday, even more so than the nation of America (esp. from a Canadian's point of view).
Israel still exists, and that cannot be denied. (You could always join the Hezbollah and fight an unseen enemy if you don't believe me).

John 1:11-12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--His own (Israel) rejected their Messiah. But they still exist. The Jews and Gentiles have always existed. 3,000 Jews were saved on the Day of Pentecost and became saved. But they all did not accept Him as their Messiah. They still exist as a nation, and someday will accept Him. They, as the nation of Israel, will accept Christ, collectively, as their Messiah.

The Church has not replaced Israel.
Islam is fighting to replace Christianity. That too is replacement theology. Do you believe that as well?
DHK