Should we believe in a young earth or our lying eyes?

[Paul of Eugene]

And of course there is the minor problem of why the flood left the 100,000+ annual layers of ice laid down in greenland without any sign of tampering with the nice, even progression of the annual layers . . . . since ice floats on water and water melts ice, the greenland icecap could not survive a world wide flood. Same goes for the antarctic ice cap.

 

[A_Christian]

Meatros:

The Bible doesn't say how he shut Noah in.
I'm not suggesting the meteor hit the ark.

Paul of Eugene:

Even if what you say is true----I am sure
that there are times when more than one layer
of ice could be formed.

I believe that the ice formed possibly during
and after the Flood and has grown since.

 

[Johnv]

John, light photons are not ‘particles’. They have some particle-like characteristics and some wave-like characteristics, but they are not specifically either.
Believe it or not, I did no that. I was attempting to use layman's terms, forgetting that actual particles have difinitive characteristics. Anyhoo, you get my drift.

 

[Meatros]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
Meatros:

The Bible doesn't say how he shut Noah in.
I'm not suggesting the meteor hit the ark.

And the inclusion of a meteor strike doesn't fit with the flood story or the science.

I don't know what your stance is on Genesis, but I don't see how you could take it literally based on your post above. I mean Genesis doesn't say *exactly* how God made the world (as in what sort of processes God went through). If you do condemn the interpretive view of Genesis, how do you reconcile it with your interpretive view of the flood?

 

[A_Christian]

Meatos:

I believe what the scripture says. I changed
nothing----I might imagine additional details
but (call it artistic license); HOWEVER, I
don't suggest the what the Bible says is a
FABLE (that it didn't happen). I also
DO NOT change the progression in which things
happen to suit my theories---unlike evolutionists!
If a day is like a thousand years to GOD, I
wouldn't try to stretch it to 300 million each.

There is a giant difference in imagining why and
how things were and allowing the Word of God to
be the foundation. It is quite another to
toss out what the Bible says and presume that
your eyes see everything because scientists
are so much wiser.

 

[The Galatian]

In short, you change Scripture to suit yourself, and object to anyone else's understanding.

 

[A_Christian]

Galatian:

The fact is, I didn't change scripture and I
really don't stand in your way of presumption.
You will find out that while I don't start
fights-----I have a habit of not walking away
from them either. If I've changed the Bible,
show me where. If you want to belive the Bible
is an allegory why stop short of Christ? Or is that a pill too terrible to swallow for a Galatian? If your just spouting, well don't
act surprise if I play along...

 

[Meatros]

If you want to belive the Bible
is an allegory why stop short of Christ?

Where did Galatian state that the bible was allegory?

You will find out that while I don't start
fights-----I have a habit of not walking away
from them either.

Apparently you don't like it when people point out your interpretations and call you on it. I'm going to ignore the fact that your explanation of the meteor is unrealistic and unsubstantiated by the bible, and I'm going to ask: What about all the other meteors? If they happened in only 6-10k years how is it possible that mankind survived? Why is all the evidence surrounding some of these big hits pointing to a really old earth?

Incidentally here's a good website about theistic evolution.

 

[A_Christian]

Because there is a GOD. That is why Noah built
his the ark. That is why we cannot blow ourselves
up. GOD is in control and not you or I or them,
but GOD.

You are totally wrong about meteors by the way.
Wormwood will not kill everyone and that is found
in REVELATIONS, my friend.

 

[Meatros]

Because there is a GOD. That is why Noah built his the ark. That is why we cannot blow ourselves up. GOD is in control and not you or I or them, but GOD.

What? I don't understand what you are referring to.

You are totally wrong about meteors by the way. Wormwood will not kill everyone and that is found in REVELATIONS, my friend.

I see, so you assert I am wrong. Then how do you explain the data? What does wormwood or revelations have anything to do with the meteors I'm discussing?

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
Meatros:

The Bible doesn't say how he shut Noah in.
I'm not suggesting the meteor hit the ark.

Paul of Eugene:

Even if what you say is true----I am sure
that there are times when more than one layer
of ice could be formed.

I believe that the ice formed possibly during
and after the Flood and has grown since.

Well, they didn't just count. They checked.

http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/icecap_synch.html

 

[Helen]

Ice layers are formed by successive patterns of heating and cooling between storms. Disrupted weather patterns after the Flood or after Babel or after Peleg were quite sufficient to produce numerous layerings.

Today we get these patterns only by way of seasons. Catastrophes can change things.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Originally posted by Helen:
Ice layers are formed by successive patterns of heating and cooling between storms. Disrupted weather patterns after the Flood or after Babel or after Peleg were quite sufficient to produce numerous layerings.

Today we get these patterns only by way of seasons. Catastrophes can change things.

Babel and Peleg in the Bible have nothing to do with earthy catastrophies. Babel refers to God confounding languages, and the scriptures say nothing about any other disaster there. Peleg's "dividing of the earth" is referred to uniformly by the commentators as a political division of the earth among the people, not superrapid continental splitting as you inventively suggest!

And there are correlations within the layers not so easily dismissed. Ice ages leave their testimony in the trapped air bubbles, with their altered levels of carbon dioxide and other trace chemicals, in just the patterns required to match their known dates from other evidence, for example. Strangely the correlation with carbon 14 dating - which you also dispute, against all reason - seems to confirm the counting method. Doesn't it strike you as odd that your projected storms just happen to make the right number of layers to match your projected accelerated radioactive decay?

And then there's the tree ring layers. A warm spell followed by a cold spell has been known to make an extra layer beyond the annual one, now and then. But the disasters you propose to explain the ice layers and lake bottom layers also somehow conspire to make all the trees around the world grow extra growth layers that look just like annual years going back 10 to 20 thousand and more! You project these disasters not only cause great crators and ice layers, they promote tree growth remarkably!

Some of us think you are reaching unreasonably against the evidence when you come up with these words of explanation.

 

[InHim2002]

There are plenty of ancient records. You will find them recorded in legends. Wars between the gods of the sea, the sky, and the air. Sometimes called hail, but the word translated in the Hebrew, for instance, is not meaning hail as we know it, but rocks. The Maoris (I think it is) from New Zealand have a story about when the moon got a ‘dirty face’ and it is associated with rocks being thrown. The stories are there; you just have to know where to look for them.

so now we learn that hail does not mean hail!

The Flood, Babel, and the time of Peleg were probably all times of catastrophic impacts

probably or were? any evidence?

 

[A_Christian]

There is plenty of evidence for the FLOOD. It
just so happens that the evolutionists are
interpreting it to suit their secular theory
and with government grants since the early
1930's.

 

[Meatros]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
There is plenty of evidence for the FLOOD. It just so happens that the evolutionists are
interpreting it to suit their secular theory
and with government grants since the early
1930's.

First off, you mean Geologists, not evolutionists.

Second it sounds as though you are trying to prove a conspiracy theory.

Third, it's all nice to say that there was a world wide flood, it's quite a different matter to prove it. If you have evidence, please provide it.

 

[Helen]

And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt. So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. -- Exodus 9:23,24

At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire. -- Psalms 18:13,14

Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word. -- Psalms 148:8


There fell 'a very grievous hail, such as has not been in Egypt since its foundations' (Exo 9:18). Stones of 'barad,' here translated 'hail,' is, as in most places where mentioned in the Scriptures, the term for meteorites. We are also informed by Midrashic and Talmudic sources that the stones which fell on Egypt were hot; this fits only meteorites, not a hail of ice. In the Scriptures it is said that these stones fell 'mingled with fire' (Exo 9:24)... and that their fall was accompanied by 'loud noises' (kolot), rendered as 'thunderings'..."
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/h001.htm

The following are oral and written traditions from all over the world that lend credence to the above hypothesis:

1. Popul-Vuh, the sacred book of the Mayas, narrates: "It was ruin and destruction...the sea was piled up...it was a great inundation...people were drowned in a sticky substance raining from the sky...The face of the earth grew dark and the gloomy rain endured days and nights...And then there was a great din of fire above their heads."

2. The Manuscript Quiche from the people of Mexico: "There descended from the sky a rain of bitumen and of a sticky substance...The earth was obscured and it rained day and night. And men ran hither and thither and were as if seized by madness; they tried to climb to the roofs, and the houses crashed down; they tried to climb the trees, and the trees cast them far away; and when they tried to escape in caves and caverns, these were suddenly closed."

3. The Annals of Cuauhtitlan speaks of an "age which ended in the rain of fire."

4. In Siberia, the Voguls record: "God sent a sea of fire upon the earth...The cause of the fire they call 'the fire-water.'"

5. In the East Indies, the aboriginal tribes state that "water of fire" rained from the sky; "with very few exceptions, all men died."

6. The Papyrus Ipuwer: "Gates, columns, and walls are consumed by fire. The sky is in confusion." The fire almost "exterminated mankind."

7. Midrash Tanhuma, Midrash Psikta Raboti, Midrash Wa-Yosha "state that naphtha, together with hot stones, poured down upon Egypt. 'The Egyptians refused to let the Israelites go, and He poured out naphtha over them, burning blains [blisters].' It was a 'stream of hot naphtha.' Naphtha is petroleum in Aramaic and Hebrew.


This is from the same source as the first. Now, I do think that the author here (Velikovsky) was mixing up some of the legends, but his data collection really cannot be faulted whether or not one agrees with his ideas. From my own research, I am sure that #6 and 7 refer to the plagues of Moses’ time, but my own impression is that the first five all refer to either the time of Babel or the time of Peleg. If you will notice, the first five are all on a different side of the world from the last two. This, for me, is a clue that they may not be talking about the same event. However the fact that ‘barad’ is translated ‘hail’ by the early interpreters does not mean that its evident original definition of being rocks (of either ice or minerals) coming down from the sky is not in effect here.

-from http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/jj_pbd.htm]
“Moses caused hail and earthquakes by night, so that those who fled...the earthquakes were killed by the hail, and those who sought shelter from the hail were destroyed by the earthquakes. And...all the houses fell in and most of the temples.” [Manetho, Concerning the Jews}
“Gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.” [Ipuwer].

By being selective, the programme read Plague Seven as being literally hail. However, Velikovsky said the “barad” was actually meteorites falling to Earth, as it entered the tail, causing “explosion-like noises” [the “thunder”]. As astronomers know, meteorite showers are associated with comets. The “fire” he identified as naphtha, a bitumen-like substance produced when hydrogen and carbon in the tail ignited in Earth’s atmosphere. Exodus describes how the “ashes of the furnace” caused “blains upon man and beast” [the Plague of Boils]. Both plagues are “recalled in the written and oral traditions of the inhabitants of both hemispheres.” [WIC, pg. 65].

Rohl, in A Test of Time, says that “mass graves at end of stratum G at Avaris” [pg. 284] were probably quake victims. The tremors were caused by the comet’s wake shaking the Earth’s axis.*

I included the previous for the extra material it includes. I have more material here at home, but I am lazy enough to prefer to simply refer to internet sources when they are available. Nevertheless, it becomes apparent to even a casual reader of legends that the earth was very different once and subject to violent catastrophes that were only a few generations apart. Our times are relatively quiet, but it was not always like this.


And yes, there is evidence that Peleg and Babel were both times of massive catastrophes. When the Setterfield speed of light model is followed, the c-z (lightspeed, redshift) curve (the same curve with rescaled axes), and the time corrections established, coordinating atomic and dynamical times, the Permian extinction falls almost exactly at the time of Babel and the K/T extinction at the time of Peleg. These correlations, by the way, were not expected nor were they ‘worked around.’ They came as a surprise to Barry, but one that confirmed that he was on the right track.

for some of his work on this, please see
http://www.setterfield.org/earlyhist.html

 

[The Galatian]

The Temple at Karnak, the structure at Stonehenge, and the Temple at Tiahuanaco all bear silent testimony to the fact that things have not always been the same where the earth's axis is concerned.

Yep. But it's quite within the variation that mainstream science has known about for a very long time. And it's a regular process, not caused by a catastrophic event.

http://www.crystalinks.com/precession.html

 

[Meatros]

Shouldn't the several centuries with the sun being blotted out be mentioned in the bible? I mean, it would be hard to farm without a sun.

 

[Helen]

Galatian, mainstream science is always behind.
Meatros, WHAT 'several centuries"???