Should we bring unbelievers to Church?

[bjonson]

SBCbyGrace said:

"I personally believe church services are about creating environments -- for the believer, an environment of worship (in its various forms) and instruction. For the unbeliever, an environment where they will hear the gospel and witness its life-changing effects among the worshippers."

I wanted to ask if you have any biblical precedence of this type of theory?

 

[bjonson]

Dr.Bob said of Saddleback:

"Two things evident on the last 3 pages - the utter confusion of Rick Warren (Saddleback) with the "seeker" style of churches like Willow Creek. This is night and day, totally unrelated to each other."

Have you ever heard of Saddleback Sam? (see Purpose Driven Church). Sounds a lot like Unchurched Harry my friend. If you review what Warren says of this unfortunate "seeker", it is nearly identical to what Hybels says of poor unchurched Harry.

I really don't understand how you can see these men are "night and day." Do any search on "seeker service" or "purpose-driven" or similar terms and you'll find hits with both Hybels and Warren quite often...

 

[bjonson]

SBCbyGrace,

You have declared that Rick Warren is solid theologically. I disagree.

I watched a video on the purpose driven website. It is a 20-minute presentation on "exponential growth", taught by Warren. He made 10 points in this video.

1. Exponential growth is possible - Gen. 47:27

With his first point, Warren begins the train wreck of faulty exegesis.

27 So Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions there and grew and multiplied exceedingly.

Somehow, Warren wants to take this passage out of context and attempts to apply it to a specific church growth program promise. The Genesis passage simply states a fact; the children of Israel multiplied exceedingly, even exponentially. However, this is directly tied to the fact that God specifically told Abraham that they would! There is nothing revelatory here. There is nothing related to Warren’s “40 Days of Purpose” program here. Surprisingly, he analogously mentions Starbucks and Krispy Kreme as examples of why we should expect our churches to grow exponentially. Instead of recognizing that the church is not a business, he compares it to two fast-growth companies. Anyone with a reasonable amount of discernment should see the invalidity of this illustration.


2. Exponential growth is the New Testament model – Acts 6:7

7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Warren takes a general statement about the Body of Christ and applies it to individual congregations. Has the church grown exponentially since the book of Acts? Certainly. Should we expect that same growth in each congregation? Nothing says we should. By God’s Providence, there are Christian churches in nearly every community of America. Many of these communities are very small. Some of them are in dying towns. Is it reasonable for a small, God-honoring church in a small town to experience exponential growth? I would say no. Does this mean the pastor’s faith is deficient? I don’t think so. Calling exponential growth a New Testament model is only accurate if one refers to the body of Christ as a whole and not individual congregations.

3. Exponential growth brings honor to God – Is. 26:15

15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.


This point is almost unnecessary. No one questions the truth of what is stated here. The passage in Isaiah is looking toward the prophetic reality that Israel would be increased after their captivity. God would not forget them and He would restore them and return growth. God will receive honor for that. There is no direct application to an individual congregation here. Worse, he makes the following statement regarding this point:

“We limit God when we think of addition instead of multiplication...God wants us to think in exponential terms”

He does? Where does God say that in His Word? The viewer is asked to accept this statement at face value without any support whatsoever. Perhaps Warren relies on the fact that he has already indicated that he hears the very voice of God, so how can we question him? The very suggestion that we “limit God” is blasphemous. It is an ultimate affront to a Sovereign God to suggest that our actions, or inactions, somehow deny Him the ability to accomplish His purposes. There is very, very bad theology here and I am afraid most viewers won’t even notice it.

More later...

 

[Blazin4Christ]

yes, you can bring them to church, so they can have a chance to be saved, but they can't be head of the church in anyway

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by bjonson:
SBCbyGrace,

You have declared that Rick Warren is solid theologically. I disagree.

I watched a video on the purpose driven website. It is a 20-minute presentation on "exponential growth", taught by Warren. He made 10 points in this video.

1. Exponential growth is possible - Gen. 47:27

With his first point, Warren begins the train wreck of faulty exegesis.

27 So Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions there and grew and multiplied exceedingly.

Somehow, Warren wants to take this passage out of context and attempts to apply it to a specific church growth program promise. The Genesis passage simply states a fact; the children of Israel multiplied exceedingly, even exponentially. However, this is directly tied to the fact that God specifically told Abraham that they would! There is nothing revelatory here. There is nothing related to Warren’s “40 Days of Purpose” program here. Surprisingly, he analogously mentions Starbucks and Krispy Kreme as examples of why we should expect our churches to grow exponentially. Instead of recognizing that the church is not a business, he compares it to two fast-growth companies. Anyone with a reasonable amount of discernment should see the invalidity of this illustration.


2. Exponential growth is the New Testament model – Acts 6:7

7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Warren takes a general statement about the Body of Christ and applies it to individual congregations. Has the church grown exponentially since the book of Acts? Certainly. Should we expect that same growth in each congregation? Nothing says we should. By God’s Providence, there are Christian churches in nearly every community of America. Many of these communities are very small. Some of them are in dying towns. Is it reasonable for a small, God-honoring church in a small town to experience exponential growth? I would say no. Does this mean the pastor’s faith is deficient? I don’t think so. Calling exponential growth a New Testament model is only accurate if one refers to the body of Christ as a whole and not individual congregations.

3. Exponential growth brings honor to God – Is. 26:15

15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.


This point is almost unnecessary. No one questions the truth of what is stated here. The passage in Isaiah is looking toward the prophetic reality that Israel would be increased after their captivity. God would not forget them and He would restore them and return growth. God will receive honor for that. There is no direct application to an individual congregation here. Worse, he makes the following statement regarding this point:

“We limit God when we think of addition instead of multiplication...God wants us to think in exponential terms”

He does? Where does God say that in His Word? The viewer is asked to accept this statement at face value without any support whatsoever. Perhaps Warren relies on the fact that he has already indicated that he hears the very voice of God, so how can we question him? The very suggestion that we “limit God” is blasphemous. It is an ultimate affront to a Sovereign God to suggest that our actions, or inactions, somehow deny Him the ability to accomplish His purposes. There is very, very bad theology here and I am afraid most viewers won’t even notice it.

More later...

Great post! Thanks for sharing some of your concerns. Something for us all to think about!

Molly

 

[bjonson]

Comments on Warren's video continued...

4. Exponential growth captures the attention of the unbelieving world – Ex. 1:12

12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel.

Any layman bible student could identify this passage as meaningful only because of its context. The Egyptian task-masters were laying a heavy burden on the enslaved Hebrews. Because of the Abrahamic promise of phenomenal growth, the children of Israel continued to magnify in numbers in spite of their maltreatment. The Egyptians were grieved because they witnessed this fact. With complete mistreatment of God’s Word, Warren hurls this example into the New Testament age and says this, “Wouldn't you like people...to be alarmed because your church is growing so fast?” I don’t understand how Warren can ask this type of question.

5. Exponential growth is caused by God – Deut. 1:10

10 The LORD your God has multiplied you, and here you are today, as the stars of heaven in multitude.

This passage is related to Israel, just as was the case in earlier points. Nonetheless, his statement, “exponential growth is caused by God” is unarguably true. My question for Warren is this: If exponential growth is caused by God, then why are you teaching people how to achieve it by using your program? I truly wonder if Warren is remotely aware of how he contradicts the purpose of his program by acquiescing to God’s sovereignty here.

6. Exponential Growth is the result of God's blessing on your life – Is. 51:2

2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

Warren seems fixated with God’s promise to Abraham to magnify the Israelites, probably because it fits his thesis so well. This technique, finding isolated or unrelated scriptures that support a particular thesis or position, is becoming more and more common among Southern Baptists. When a pastor/teacher approaches the Word of God piecemeal instead of verse by verse and in context, he is in danger of serious interpretative errors. This is a perfect example. Additionally, the supposition he is making in point six is faulty. It is a logical “if/then” statement. If God blesses your life, then you will experience exponential growth. He is attributing this growth to God’s blessing. Then, he applies this to each church congregation equally. As I said earlier, it is unreasonable to expect every local church to grow as Warren expects them to grow. There are various demographic and certainly spiritual reasons why certain churches will not grow exponentially. I’ll go so far as to say the Bible indicates growing apostasy in the last days, not a surge in church growth. If anything, we might expect to see less growth since the Way is narrow.

 

[Comrade]

Bring unbelievers to church? yes. Better yet instead of just bringing them to church. Witness to them.

 

[superdave]

“We limit God when we think of addition instead of multiplication...God wants us to think in exponential terms”

He does? Where does God say that in His Word? The viewer is asked to accept this statement at face value without any support whatsoever. Perhaps Warren relies on the fact that he has already indicated that he hears the very voice of God, so how can we question him? The very suggestion that we “limit God” is blasphemous. It is an ultimate affront to a Sovereign God to suggest that our actions, or inactions, somehow deny Him the ability to accomplish His purposes. There is very, very bad theology here and I am afraid most viewers won’t even notice it.

Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem...



God cannot be limited by the efforts of man, however, that argument by itself does not make it theologically incorrect to remove real impediments to the delivery of truth, when we do have the power to do so.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Amazed. The MASTER of number manipulation (Jack Hyles) had a series of messages on Acts on church growth. His emphasis was on busing poor black kids in to swell the stats.

But Warren et al lead thousands with the TRUE Gospel and he is not biblical, just interested in numbers?

(Acts 2:41 KJV) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 2:47 KJV) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

(Acts 5:14 KJV) And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

(Acts 11:24 KJV) For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

(Acts 6:7 KJV) And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

(Acts 9:31 KJV) Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

(Acts 12:24 KJV) But the word of God grew and multiplied.

 

[All about Grace]

In response to BJ's critique of Warren's principles of exponential thinking, I will simply repeat something I said in the PDL thread:

I did read your article on exponential thinking. I do think you make the fundamental mistake of equating Warren's APPLICATION of the principle to the principle itself.

Exponential thinking is primarily a faith issue. Even within your obvious Calvinistic tendencies, surely you would agree that God operates many times with faith as a MEANS for achieving his purposes and plan.

BJ also asks: I wanted to ask if you have any biblical precedence of this type of theory?

Answer: yes. The Corinthian church.

Also you make the mistake again of equating theology with methodology.

 

[bjonson]

The Corinthian church is an example of a church that "created environments" that were conducive to visitors?

 

[All about Grace]

Originally posted by bjonson:
The Corinthian church is an example of a church that "created environments" that were conducive to visitors?

While it is irrelevant to the discussion (which is a methodological issue not a theological one), I would say that the Corinthian church was an environment where Paul said believers are to worship God and unbelievers are to observe their worship and "fall down and worship God, exclaiming, 'God is really among you!'"

But again Paul's rebuke of the Corinthians is not given to articulate whether unbelievers should be brought to church. Obviously they are present and obviously there is an environment that points those present to God.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Amazed. The MASTER of number manipulation (Jack Hyles) had a series of messages on Acts on church growth. His emphasis was on busing poor black kids in to swell the stats.

But Warren et al lead thousands with the TRUE Gospel and he is not biblical, just interested in numbers?

(Acts 2:41 KJV) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 2:47 KJV) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

(Acts 5:14 KJV) And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

(Acts 11:24 KJV) For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

(Acts 6:7 KJV) And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

(Acts 9:31 KJV) Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

(Acts 12:24 KJV) But the word of God grew and multiplied.

Dr. Bob,

I really wish you would address the specific quotes from Rick Warren which I provided. They are not secondary sources; I transcribed them myself. He is misusing scripture to teach "exponential growth", a concept foreign to New Testament teaching.

Would you please address the topic? I feel like you're evading the issue just because your son works for Warren...I hope I'm wrong.

Brian

 

[Dr. Bob]

Get a grip. I have been my own man for 56 years and not changing on behalf of one son (ordained SBC) or other (General Manager of Purpose Driven Youth).

I asked YOU pages back to deal with a particular issue rather than general attacks. When you opt to start such a thread (your choice; there are LOTS of areas about PDL with which you and I will find full agreement!) so the focus of all can be on it, you can be sure I will answer.

And probably agree!

Until then, general Scriptures that show EXPONENTIAL GROWTH in the Book of Acts will suffice.

 

[All about Grace]

Brian,

Are you truly suggesting that exponential growth is foreign to the NT???

As Bob has clearly demonstrated, the growth of the Acts church was truly exponential.

You need to go back and address the point I have made at least twice now -- exponential growth is primarily a faith issue. Do you believe faith is a means God can use to generate growth?