Should we or should we not judge?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
I dare say that 99+ % of the "judging" they get would be non-existant if they would just shut up and go back into the closet.

The problem with that position is that we as a country guarantee a person's individual liberties, even if it's the liberty to sin. For example, refusing to accept Christ as Savior is a sin, yet few would call for Jews to "go back in the closet".

I'm not saying your point doesn't have merit, it does. But most homosexuals are average ordinary folks, who just want to live their lives to the best of their ability. I don't agree with their life choices, but I can still respect the person. The problem is that the homosexual activist crowd gets all the attention, even though they're a minority of homosexuals. Every group, even Evangelical Christians, has that problem.

Even murderers know better than to try to push for acceptance of their sins.

The problem with that analogy is that murder is a sin committed upon a nonconsenting party. Two persons fornicating involves consenting individuals. I think the government needs to stay out of the lives of consenting individuals, even if I disagree with what is being consented to. I have more problems with my Baptist neighbor who sometimes uses profanity during Monday Night Football (which is a gross violation of the Ten Commandments).

 

[TexasSky]

Artimaeus,

I'm a strong supporter of "judge not, lest ye be judged," however - -that doesn't mean "accept the sin," and it doesn't mean, "pretend it isn't wrong," and it doesn't mean, "don't correct."

I think Humblesmith said it best when he/she pointed out that there is a correct way to judge.

I also think Jim was on target.

In regards to the question of why we're harder on the homosexual than we are on the speeder - there are several reasons.

1) As someone pointed out - the average "sinner" does not try to force the Christian community to pretend their sin is not a sin.

We don't see adulterous people pushing an agenda in schools that teaches adultery is just another way of expressing love. We don't see thieves pushing for special health benefits related specifcally to their activities as theives.

2) The laws against homosexuality do have biblical grounds. Even if you think that references to Sodom and Gomorrah or references to men lying with men like women don'tmean it is a sin - you can't escape the fact that the bible has rigid rules about extra-marital sex, or that the bible defines marriage.

The laws against speeding are definately man-made laws, and while the bible does tell us to obey those in authority - disobeying a man-made law is on a different scale than disobeying God's law.

3) Things like homosexualty, in my opinion, violate the commandment not to worship other Gods, and violate Christ's command to love the Lord most of all. I say that because the average homosexual that I know does not say, "I feel this sexual urge, but God teaches it is wrong, so I will abstain and ask God to help me." The average homosexual does not say, "I'm sorry Lord, please help me." The average homosexual does not even say, "I disagree with you when you say my actions are sinful." What they DO say is, quite often, is, "If God says this wrong, I don't want anything to do with God."

That attitude of, "My desires are more important than anything else," - is why people judge it so harshly. And they DO believe that. They shout it with their actions. Are their families against it? Then they disown their families. Are their employers against it? They sue their employers. Is the local law against it? They violate the law and try to have it overturned. Is their church against it? They stop attending. NOTHING matters to them as much as their sexual urge.

And that is a window into their soul.

 

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

Back to your original post.

I think we do need to keep our churches pure. I just think that there are strict biblical ways to do it.

Much of what people do is not biblical correction - it is mean-spirited-gossip.

Biblical correction points out the sin privately, and it comes from a source of brotherly love. The brother is asked to repent, and those around the brother are there to help them through the struggle with prayer and God's love.

That isn't happening much today. A lot of today is unfounded gossip and false accusations.

When there really is sin involved - you seldom see anyone go in private to the person and say, "We need to talk about this," and you almost NEVER see it taken back with 2 more from church. Churches seldom vote on expelling members - its swept under the back door instead.

I know Pastors still try to help people repent, but the average church accuser doesn't. They just sit back and point fingers and scream about what a horrible person the other sinner is.

So - as someone said - there is condemnation and there is judgment.

If you are going to stand on the bible as the reason for judging someone - stand on the WHOLE bible and follow the correct biblical pattern for correcting a brother. If you aren't going to handle it in a biblical way, don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're standing on holy ground with your accusations.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Much of what people do is not biblical correction - it is mean-spirited-gossip.

Biblical correction points out the sin privately, and it comes from a source of brotherly love. The brother is asked to repent, and those around the brother are there to help them through the struggle with prayer and God's love.

That isn't happening much today. A lot of today is unfounded gossip and false accusations.

I must agree 100%. There is an abundance of unrighteous fingerpointing that is being mistaken for biblical correction. Are we so self-centered as a church that we have forgotten how to do even this basic thing scripturally?

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TexasSky:
Much of what people do is not biblical correction - it is mean-spirited-gossip.

Biblical correction points out the sin privately, and it comes from a source of brotherly love. The brother is asked to repent, and those around the brother are there to help them through the struggle with prayer and God's love.

That isn't happening much today. A lot of today is unfounded gossip and false accusations.

I must agree 100%. There is an abundance of unrighteous fingerpointing that is being mistaken for biblical correction. Are we so self-centered as a church that we have forgotten how to do even this basic thing scripturally? </font>[/QUOTE]As whole? As in the western church? Yes we are that self-centered.

But not my home church. We use church discipline when needed. And we do it biblically. And this is just ONE of the MANY reasons I am moving back HOME in 4 weeks. 1000 miles, no home, no job, but it is worth it 1000%!

www.tvbc.org Check us out! and visit when you can!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[shannonL]

As Doc. Patterson used to say
"Nothing wrong with being a fruit inspector."

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by shannonL:
As Doc. Patterson used to say
"Nothing wrong with being a fruit inspector."

True, but being a fruit inspector does not equate to sitting in judgement over the producer of the fruit. Additionally, few Christians possess the ability to discern between good fruit/bad fruit, and fruit they like/dislike. Too often, we will call a person evil because we don't like tomatoes.

 

[av1611jim]

JohnV;
That was clever. And funny. Was the tomato thing a reference to Salem?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Johnv]

No, but if it works....

 

[dianetavegia]

If the church is not to judge, how can a church practice Church Discipline?

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

1 Co 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?

 

[shannonL]

looks like you have a good church Jim.
I have found that site before. I'm always looking at IFB church websites because I'm on deputation as a missionary. Looks like yall have a pretty good sized work for being in the Northwest?