should women wear dresses/skirts all the time

[superdave]

You have to use discernment to apply the clear principles taught in God's Word to your particular culture.

I think you misunderstood if you think I said God determines the standard. God has clearly laid out principles in his Word, he has not specifically deliniated skirt length, what clothing is or is not masculine or feminine, nor whether the exposing of the ankle is sinful. He has told us what the guidelines are and we have to figure out how that affects our particular decisions.

When I say culture affects the application, I am not making man the determiner of the principles, merely the agent who has to determine the particular interpretation of what the principle is, and than how it specifically applies, given the cultural context. That is the practice that is most often abandoned by those who find it difficult. Its much easier to make up your own standards, and than quote scripture referring to an entirely different subject to support you.

There may well be forms of dress that are representative of different things in different cultures, and would cause a different application of the same principles.

For Example. Some missionaries I know who did not have any problem with the wife or the daughters wearing pants have now gone to a country where pants are only worn by women who are prostitutes, so they have chosen not to wear them there. The application may be different given a different culture. That is what I meant by the above statement. God's principles are consistent, our mileage may vary as the saying goes.

 

[Butterflies4mami]

Hi everyone!
This topic is amazing to me. Sometimes I am quite saddened by it too. When I got saved coming home from a youth conference, I was in a church that believed dresses for women only. I went to a college three years after that who belived the same. This has been a difficult subject for me. I have not wore pants/shorts/ etc. in about 8-9 years. I do not regret it one bit. What I do regret as I look back is how I felt about those who didn't live EXACTLY as I did. And not really how I felt, but how I was taught.Do I as a lady of God believe that women should wear skirts and dresses and look as feminine as POSSIBLE all the time. YES! Do I feel as if that is what God would have of me? YES! I live the way I live because I believe it brings me into closer fellowship with Christ. (In every aspect of what I do or don not do) I expect others to make the same choices for themselves and live with those choices for themselves. I was always told that GOd does not change....so, just because the world does, we shouldn't. But, that is easier said than done. What exactly does GOD expect of us? I do not even pretend to know anymore.
I also remember the reasoning that was preached against going to the movies was for your testimony sake. But, now that I think about it, our culture is such that would someone look at me going into a movie and ask themselves... I wonder if she is going to see a rated R film, she couldn't be a Christian!! NO. It is not second guessed anymore! It is a national past time now. So, should I stay away from movies? Perhaps. But,at any rate, it is not important enough(to me) to preach an entire sermon on. And yes, I have heard them.
Sigh..... I wish life were simpler, teaching the BIBLE to our children, teaching our young girls to wait until marriage, how to cook, embroidery, music, reading, and enjoy life. I find myself extremely saddened by having to make all these life decisions for my kids wondering if being to strict will drive them away, or being too soft will displease the LORD. Life used to be so much simpler at some point in time. Of course, I'm wishing for something that will never come to pass.Anyway, I hope we will all try to do what is 1st: Pleasing to God, not what is comfortable or most widely accepted.... those are 2 dangerous places to be.
In Christ,
Peggy
Is. 6:8

 

[TaterTot]

DONNA,
I got the same unwanted private message. I dont post in this forum either, but someone either was mistaken or thinks I needed to read a lengthy dissertation on why I am wrong. ??? Whatever!

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by superdave:
I think you misunderstood if you think I said God determines the standard. God has clearly laid out principles in his Word, he has not specifically deliniated skirt length, what clothing is or is not masculine or feminine, nor whether the exposing of the ankle is sinful. He has told us what the guidelines are and we have to figure out how that affects our particular decisions.

When I say culture affects the application, I am not making man the determiner of the principles, merely the agent who has to determine the particular interpretation of what the principle is, and than how it specifically applies, given the cultural context. That is the practice that is most often abandoned by those who find it difficult. Its much easier to make up your own standards, and than quote scripture referring to an entirely different subject to support you.

Isn't that just another way of saying that man is the standard? God said women must wear modest apparel. What's modest? Depends on what a particular culture interprets is modest at the time.

I'm sure the fig leaves met Adam and Eve's standards, but God had different ideas it seemed. He made them clothes from animal skins.

There may well be forms of dress that are representative of different things in different cultures, and would cause a different application of the same principles.

For Example. Some missionaries I know who did not have any problem with the wife or the daughters wearing pants have now gone to a country where pants are only worn by women who are prostitutes, so they have chosen not to wear them there. The application may be different given a different culture. That is what I meant by the above statement. God's principles are consistent, our mileage may vary as the saying goes.

Yet our culture has gotten to the point that there is no difference between the apparel of the prostitute and the general female population. What does that say of the culture?

What does it say when there is no distinction between the apparel of a man or a woman? Take jeans and T-shirts for example.

And is it sound reasoning that a cut that reveals the shape of the hips is really making a distinction? Isn't it only a distinction for those woman who have what the artists and advertisers have taught us are the features of a beautiful woman? Is it distinction enough for women who have less than feminine shapes?

And, is a cut that reveals the shape of a girl's hips really being modest? I find it interesting that prostitutes have found pants useful for solicitation.

 

[robycop3]

In the good ole days, whores advertised with certain kinds of makeup or a certain type or color of clothes, kinda like the black net hose useta be used here. And whores in different nations and in different sections of large nations use various methods of "advertising". There's no cut-n-dried rule for a shady lady's methods of solicitation.

Remember the first "Picturephones", first tried in , I believe, the Pittsburgh area, in the 1960s? Those phones were frequently used by whores to advertise their wares live, just as our pcs are now used.

Cultures make the clothes, hairdos, makeup, footware, bling, & other parts of personal decorum. What's acceptable here may not be acceptable there.

I believe the question is something between each woman and GOD, as well as with her family, on what's appropriate dress, with cultural customs certainly not ignored.

 

[superdave]

Thats where I am trying to go roby. Personal responsibility, aka individual soul liberty.

Aaron
I am not saying God is silent on the issue, I am saying that he doesn't give us specific instructions for every possible scenario we could find ourselves in. Man does have to apply God's truth correctly, or else we end up with the other end of the spectrum. Man indeed making the standards apart from God, and determining that pants are evil in their very nature.

At some point, Each person is responsible for their handling of the truth of God's Word and their particular application. Just as with any other issue not clearly and specifically deliniated by the scriptures. That is both consistent, and reasonable. It maintains the certainty of God's truth, and allows for the liberty that we do enjoy.

 

[Trotter]

Gee, Aaron. First you try to tell everyone what music is, and ain't, godly...and now you're trying to tell everyone what they should, and shouldn't wear.

Hope I never venture into your church.

 

[superdave]

Careful, I have purposely not mentioned the Music forum because Aaron was trying hard not to get extrabiblical on this thread although he's gettin' closer. Don't provoke him

 

[Gina B]

Should men wear pants/slacks all the time?

Gina

 

[rsr]

Gina's back!

Pass me my kilt, please.

 

[Trotter]

Awww, Dave!

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Trotter:
Gee, Aaron. First you try to tell everyone what music is, and ain't, godly...and now you're trying to tell everyone what they should, and shouldn't wear.

I am? Where did I ever say what anyone should wear? I believe that I phrased everything as a question. Perhaps you could venture to answer one.

Besides, you aren't the first one, still smarting from his whopping in the music forum, to dog my heels in another one, and you probably won't be the last.

Hope I never venture into your church.

I agree. If all you want to do is make statements about God's will without having to defend them, then you probably wouldn't like it much. <unnecessary denominational criticism snipped>

[ December 08, 2004, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by superdave:
Careful, I have purposely not mentioned the Music forum because Aaron was trying hard not to get extrabiblical on this thread although he's gettin' closer. Don't provoke him

And yet, you insist that the interpretation of God's standard of modesty must be based on the prevailing customs of the time.

Perhaps you could show me, from the Scriptures, where you get that idea.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Moderator note

Please stay on topic and do not attack each other's churches.

 

[superdave]

And yet, you insist that the interpretation of God's standard of modesty must be based on the prevailing customs of the time.

Perhaps you could show me, from the Scriptures, where you get that idea.

Ah, but I did not do that. The interpretation of the scriptures has to take into account only the cultural context of the writer. This is simply the only way to determine what the author meant by their words.

Its the Application that may vary depending on the culture of the applier, since the specific situations do not always parallel directly. Most of the time this expands the scope of the principle and how it can accurately be applied, but it works both ways. I haven't had much temptation to eat meat offered to idols, but the principles taught by Paul about that particular subject can have an impact on my decisions about cultural issues that I face that Paul would have no concept of in the 1st century. In the same way, there are particular issues that Paul warned the early church believers about that may have no specific weight given the changes in culture since that time. However, the interpretation of those teachings, and the principles taught are still valid, but must be applied specifically to our current culture, rather than simply used as lists of laws. It actually allows for further application of most truths, but it also removes the 'scriptural' support for many man made standards regarding most commonly in our circles the issues of dress and music.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." IITim. 2:15

" keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. " I Peter 3:15-17

"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." Col. 2:20-23

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ–to the glory and praise of God." Phil. 1:9-11

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."

"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

Rom 14:1-3;22-23 (The rest of the chapter is good too, but I'll let you all check it out for yourselves)

We have to study hard and figure out what the principles being taught in a specific situation are, and apply them to our current cultural setting. This allows for the truth to apply anywhere anytime, and it maintains the integrity of God's truth.

 

[ktn4eg]

Don't know that this has been addressed, but what about women who are in the military? Often they have a uniform code that requires them to wear pants. It's not like they can just "go find another job" because they are serving a legal commitment of time.

Granted, I would PREFER that women not fill certain military occupations, but the fact is that some do. One might say, "Well, CHRISTIAN women shouldn't!" But what happens if that woman was saved AFTER she enlisted?

I used to live in a city that was adjacent to a very large military base, and quite often there were a few very dedicated members who were in this situation and whose military duties didn't always allow time for them to change clothes prior to coming to our services.

Was what they were doing an abomination to God? Should they have been told not to attend our services (BTW, often they would bring a non-Christian friend or two along with them too)?

Comments?

 

[HankD]

We have to study hard and figure out what the principles being taught in a specific situation are, and apply them to our current cultural setting. This allows for the truth to apply anywhere anytime, and it maintains the integrity of God's truth.

True and we also have an equivocation when the question is asked "should men ever wear skirts"?

Example: When President Reagan was put to rest a company of bagpipe players dressed in kilts played "Amazing Grace".

Why is it no one ever complains about the practice of male kilt wearing?

Another point FWIW:
I lived during the Second World War and to me it's ironic that when my mother and aunts went to work at the war factories one of the reasons that they wore slacks was out of modesty because of all the bending, climbing etc., in order to to keep the eyes of the older male workers who stayed home from the war from wandering.

HankD

 

[superdave]

Because it is viewed as culturally acceptable

Very good point. No one views kilt wearing as transvestism, just as no one should view women wearing slacks as transvestism. That is after all what the scriptures are talking about when they refer to not wearing that which pertains to the other gender.

When you apply scripture, you have to evaluate the cultural context, that is all I am saying. Not that culture changes the truth of scripture. It does change the way the truth might be applied, and it works both ways.

 

[HappyG]

Should women wear dresses/skirts all the time?

Nope!

 

[HappyG]

Should we even waist our energy typing about it?

Nope!