Sign gifts--Tongues etc

Based upon your comments Singer, you have a rather dim view of the Christian--a fragile person whose faith can break at any moment. Is that how you view your own faith? What gives you that idea?

I was saved out of Roman Catholiciscm. Once I saw the error of that false religion, its irreonciliable beleifs with the Bible, I determined to follow Christ no matter what the cost. Jesus said, "No man having put his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God."

You said "If the life of a Christian is so fragile as to cause suspect" Why do you think the Christian life is fragile? What gives you that idea? Prayer, Bible Study, and so on ought to strenghen you, as you say. But if causes you to continue to reflect back on an experience that no doubt was emotional and from some other source outside of the Bible, why continue to defend it when it is so far in the past and it is not an ongoing occurence in your life? Are you not willing to admit that you might have had an emotional experience at one time in your life that may have been out of line with the Bible? Or is your life too fragile to admit such a thing?

You speak about being paranoid about Satan trying to destroy you. Are you? Every experience, must be judged according to the Word of God. If tongues is judged unscriptural according to the Word of God, then you seem paranoid in accepting this truth that it is indeed unscriptural, and that the consequence of such will have an effect somehow on all the rest of your life, when in reality it hasn't had any effect on your life all these years. Where is the logic in this?
DHK

 

Matt, you can't find something that isn't there.

MEE

 

Singer, hold your head up and thank God for what He has given you. You are so blessed to see the truth.

You're on the right track and don't let some of these posters tell you differently! If they only could see and hear what God has for them, they would be ashamed of what they post.

MEE

 

*sigh* Singer

giving to vain and foolish babbling and repetitions

Did saying praise God 6000 times - move you ounce closer to God - then only saying it once

Tounges is not to be used unless interpreted

That covers every variety, version, type of tongues in the Bible - to angel babbling, to other languages

There are no words to talk to God properly and tongues isnt for talking to God - praise God 4 billion times doesnt cover it

I dislike praying because I always break out crying, over what Ive done, and over others

DARNIT im crying now - unmanly, weak, stop it stop it stopit, focus focus

there, in simple terms you had an experience Singer - whether or not from God - the fruits of it would tell - but for as it being tongues - NO
it was not

I will not say whether good nor bad - but it was not tongues

All gifts are in operation today however

 

Keep it coming....I've got a strong back and a constitution to match !!

 

Lorelei:
(quote)
It certainly doesn't say to trust the answer regardless of whather it is scriptural or not.

What I received, I've considered to be the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence
of tongues and that is very scriptural.

( quote)
Paul rebuked the Corinthians for accepting spirits and other gospels so easily. He warned
us that these came from Satan.

The spirits available to them were spirits of denial that Jesus was the Christ.
I was praying directly to God, the creator of heaven and earth (Jesus Christ)
whatever you want to call Him. Have we no assurance that He hears and
answers prayer? Overboard thinking then would allow for the possibility
that maybe Satan has crossfired your prayers and allows you to be
deceived in believing that you are saved in spite of your reluctance and
total unwillingness to join the Catholic Church. The question becomes....
"Who's the Wolf"? You're warning me of my experience and feel that
Satan has surely influenced me. Catholics believe that we are both
misguided by the ''pit of hell'' when we reject the Catholic Church.
Evangelicals believe that Catholics are under some ''other gospel'' influence.
My Mormon sister would like to influence me into the "one true church''.
My JW cousins have shared their take on the gospel.
The cult I grew up in warned me about all of you. So..."Who's the Wolf"...?
Do I suddenly become the wolf for receiving an answer to prayer?
Your suggestions would cause me to doubt that friend who can help in time of need.



(quote)


According to you, the experience only edified yourself. No where in
the testimony of your experience did you share the gospel story. Are you aware
that the gospel deals with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and has
nothing to do with your experience?

Don't you believe in personal answers from God to personal requests?
I've shared the gospel story for 27 years, Lorelei and I well know that it deals
with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. If this thread only dealt with the Gospel
Story, I'd never mention it, but isn't the topic concerning tongues?

(quote)
See, Paul had a real experience with the Lord. According to Corinthians
he spoke tongues more than ALL of you, and he speaks about tnogues
ALOT less! His experience caused him to preach the gospel. The Holy
Spirit teaches us about Jesus, he does not cause us to focus on Himself.

You're misjudging the result of my experience. Those at Pentecost were told to wait for
power from on high and when they received it, they spoke in other languages. They were
also empowered with the ability to effectively preach the gospel. If I'd have said that
I saw a bright light and was knocked off my horse and was blind for three days and
got up praising God.... would you have believed me then?


(quote)
Read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, he used the gift to preach the gospel,
not edify himself. He used the gift for what it was intended. It was a mos
t powerful sermon. Unfortunately, your experience served you and you alone,
this is not the example we find of it's use in the NT. Of course we find very little in
the NT about it's use at all. That should tell you something right there.

There again....some say on this board that there are no gifts today and others minimize
the gifts; still others say gifts are nothing more than personal abilities. Someone's wrong..
"Who's the Wolf"? Is the ability to share our faith a Gift? I don't know, but I've been
doing that a long time and I don't see it as self edifying. I'm compelled to....desire to.



Lorelei...you overdo the emphasis on self edification. I was edified, yes,
and I have experienced the desire to "Go and Tell" which is what our commission
is. I do not dwell on my self but rather was thankful to God for touching me in
the way He did.I'll forgive you for your false impressions of
me. We're really in the same boat here, and just because I pull my oar differently
than you, doesn't make me a follower of a wrong spirit.

 

DHK:



You said "If the life of a Christian is so fragile as to cause suspect" Why do you think the
Christian life is fragile?

No DHK, I'm asking that question myself....to others. I'm asking if it is so fragile that
Satan could influence us when we are in prayer to God and asking God for answers.


You speak about being paranoid about Satan trying to destroy you. Are you?

No DHK, there again; I'm asking that question. I'm asking "Does Satan have the ability
to destroy our faith and influence us into wrongful practices and give us condemning answers
to our prayers to God with raised arms" ? I direct my question to those who doubt
my experience. I claim that is not possible....why do you think it is?



Every experience, must be judged according to the Word of God. If tongues
is judged unscriptural according to the Word of God, then you seem paranoid
in accepting this truth that it is indeed unscriptural, and that the consequence
of such will have an effect somehow on all the rest of your life, when in
reality it hasn't had any effect on your life all these years. Where is the
logic in this?

Tongues is not unscriptural, tongues was not unscriptural in Christ's time, to Paul or
to all of the apostles. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, so why is it unscriptural
in 2003 ? Didn't the effect of Paul's experience influence his life that day and for
all the rest of his life ? Aren't we also subject to answers to prayer likewise?

Don't you have a testimony of how you became interested in serving in
the ministry? Did you pursue that through prayer? Have you considered that
Satan might have misled you to think that you are called to be a preacher?
Do you think that prayer is that fragile when the heartfelt prayers go out to God.?

That's what I'm asking..!

 

Sularis:

Let me guess...........

You're single, wear glasses and do your nails religiously each day.

Right?

 

In reality, however, wasn't this what Paul was really concerned about. For want of a better word, Paul called the believers at Corinth "carnal" (1Cor.3:1-3). He told then that they were infants in need of milk when they ought to be eating strong food such as meat. So in a sense they were as you say, fragile emotional Christians. They allowed their emotions to get all out of order when they allowed such an abuse of tongues to take place in their church. Such chaos existed that Paul set down strict requirements for the speaking of tongues in the church and then warned them that God is not the God of confusion, but of order.

Now keep in mind that everything that is written here is written to the church which is at Corinth. He is answering a letter that they sent him (1Cor.7:1). So the gift of tongues was strictly for the local church. It was never meant for personal use outside of the local church. It was always to be used in public, in the local church, for the public use of the edification of others, and specifically as a sign to the unbelieving Jews (1Cor.14:21,22). Why speak in tongues if these purposes are not being accomplished. That is why God established the gift in the first place.
If they were going to abuse the gift, use it for purposes other than God intended it for, then yes, Satan surely would get a foothold in their lives. They would be disobeying God. Look what happened in 1Cor.11:30 when the Corinthians abused the Lord's Table: "For this cause many among you are weak, many are sick, and many sleep (are dead)." If God so judged them that abused the Lord's Table in such a harsh way, why should he not judge them who abuse spiritual gifts just as harshly?

Absolutely. Satan will use any conceivable way that he can to destroy a believer's life. The Bible says that he "is a roaring lion walking about seeking whom he may devour; whom resist steadfast in the faith.."
I don't think that the raising of arms has anything to do with prayer or worship one way or another. In fact, for many it just adds to more emotionalism which becomes more dangerous to one's state of mind in their "prayer life."
We are constantly reminded throughout the Scriptures to have control over our thoughts, over what we think, knowing what our petions are, what we are praying for, etc. We are always, always, to have complete control over our minds. (unless you are sleeping). Otherwise you give control to Satan.

2Cor.10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Can the person who speaks in tongues honestly say that they bring every one of their thoughts to the obedience of Jesus Christ? How do they know?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This is a very important passage of Scripture. It tells how God spoke to His people in the Old Testament: i.e., through the prophets--through dreams, visions, an audible voice, and so one (vs. 1). The it tells how God speaks to us in these last days (now)--by Jesus Christ. He speaks to us by Christ through His Word. We find everything we need to know about God and Christ through the Word. There is no longer any need for visions, dreams, audible voices, etc. That is how God spoke to the Old Testament prophets. Today He uses His Word.
God uses different methods in different periods of times to speak to people. He spoke to Moses out of a burning bush, but he doesn't speak to you or I out of burning bushes.
He used the gift of tongues in the first century, but it was not His purpose to use it in the second century or in the 21st century. The very fact that Hindus, Voodoo worshippers, and Mormons speak in the same kind of tongues is evidence enough that these tongues are not from God, and are sent from the devil with the purpose of destroying one's spiritual life.

I have a prayer life, am able to go the Lord in prayer at any time. I have seen God answer prayer in the most marvellous ways. I have seen God heal, God provide, God save, God answer prayers in many ways.
In many Charismatic churches tongues is a proud boastful measuring stick of spirituality. If you have it, you are in--you are spiritual. If you don't have it--you are out, you are not spiritual.
I suppose the Corinthian church could have been like that for Paul had to tell them to seek for the better gifts, and tongues was the least of all the gifts. In 1Cor.12:28 he lists all the gifts in order of importance and puts tongues at the very bottom of the list. Then he says to seek the better gifts (prophesying, teaching, etc.)
As for me:
"I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
DHK

 

DHK,

Are you sure that it was God that answered those prayers? Could the "evil one" have stepped in and answered your requests? If you believe that is what happened to Singer, how do you know that it doesn't happen to you? Think about it!

Singer,

You have been holding out on us. I thought that you received the "baptism of the Holy Ghost" evidenced by speaking in tongues. DHK, seems to imply that you have the "gift of tongues."

Which is it?

MEE

 

MEE:

What I see here is DHK's (and others) conception of the voicing of any unlearned
words to be the gift of tongues. I've described in the "Tongues" thread that what
I received was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and not the gift......as it has not recurred
in 27 years, I've not displayed it in church, neither interpreted etc.

What I told Lorelei in this thread that you may have missed was this:

(Lorelei)

It certainly doesn't say to trust the answer regardless of whather it is
scriptural or not.

(Singer)

What I received, I've considered to be the Baptism of the Holy Ghost
with evidence of tongues and that is very scriptural.

 

That is just a silly assumption on your part. I see God work and answer prayer day in and day out, every month, every week, yea, every day. It is a continual walk of faith in my life. Singer relies on one emotional experience that happened once in his lifetime; one time in twenty plus years. There is huge difference. My prayer life is backed up by virtually every New Testament book in the Bible. The gift of tongues is backed up in no book of the Bible. In fact it is only mentioned as a historical experience three times in the book of Acts, and it is dealt with by Paul in only parts of three chapters of one book in the entire New Testament. It is not mentioned any where else in the entire bible. And in those chapters the context is one of rebuke.
DHK

 

The Bible never says that tongues are the evidence of the Spirit. Only those who were alive at the time of Christ had to wait for the Spirit because the Spirit could not be sent until later.

If you can't tell what you are saying when praying in the Spirit then there is no way to know if you were denying Christ or not, is there?

Neither your experience or the Catholic teaching can be confirmed in the Word of God. No where does the Bible say that the Spirit always came with the evidence of tongues. When it does mention tongues it mentions how not everyone speaks them and how others around them should understand what is being said.

 

This is actually "two questions" not just one.

The first one - is do we trash 1Cor 12, 1 Cor 14 and Ephesians 4 any time soon? My answer would be "..."No".

That question further clarified by noting that there is no "division" in 1Cor 12 saying "These are sign gifts so they end pretty soon" and then "This part of the list is not a sign of anything so they can continue until Christ returns".

Part II of your question is ... "Whether you believe in inserting a division in 1Cor 12 or not - is the current popular form of Tongues - the same as the gift of tongues in 1Cor 12?"

My answer there would also be "No". Acts 2 and 1Cor 14 seems to dictate that the popular form seen today was not what was being practiced back then.

In Christ,

Bob

 

1 Cor 12 says that there are DIFFERENT gifts given by the SAME Holy Spirit. So one single gift is not the only sign possible.

However in Acts 10 and then again referenced in Acts 15 we "Do" see the gift of tongues being used as an undeniable sign of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:46,47.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were
astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the
Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

 

1Corinthians 14:21,22
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; (Israel) and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues: a sign to the unbelieving Jew of the first century. It was an indication to the Israelite that the gospel being preached by the Apostles was authentically from God.
DHK

 

And thus we have yet another biblical paradox !!!!

 

The Corinthian church was by all accounts - a gentile congregation with "some jews".

Paul states "EACH ONE has a tongue".

Impossible to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Baptism of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:4)And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:39) For the promise is unto you, (Jews) and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

That's us and He's still calling!

Refreshing:

Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

What is the refreshing?

Isaiah 28:11-12) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by tongues, was first to the Jews, Samaritans, and then to the Gentiles. It hasn't changed. God is still pouring out His Spirit today, just as He did on the Day of Pentecost.

If you will notice, I never mentioned "the gift of tongues" once.

MEE