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Sign Gifts
- Thread starter Berean
- Start date
It wasn't a miracle in Corinthians like it was in Acts 2. Corinth was a port city, with many languages being spoken, so therefore interpretation was vital. I once preached in an international church in Japan. I spoke in English and it was interpreted into Japanese, Chinese, and Thai, I believe. In such a service, interpretation was vital. And the Greek word in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 is diermeneuo, the usual verb for non-miraculous interpretation of a language, as witness its usage in Acts 9:36--"Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas."
atpollard
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 12:6-11 NASB
I think not.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
So the argument is that all of these manifestations of the spirit are special gifts from God for the common good (wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, spirits, tongues) HOWEVER, the interpretation of Tongues is just non-miraculous poly-lingual saints? Is that REALLY what you think 1 Corinthians 12 says?
I think not.
There were foreign persons present who understood the languages being spoken at Pentecost.
There were no persons present in the later accounts who understood the languages being spoken so interpretation was necessary.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 14:2 NASB For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:13-19 NASB
13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. 18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
The instructions on Tongues in Corinthians does not sound like what happened in Acts to me.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I am not alone.No. I just have to think you have a failed interpretation here!
Perhaps, for some reason, you can't see that they are the same?
If you are talking to me, you are presuming much. I do not argue that all of those gifts are supernatural, but that some of them are providential. (Do you know the difference? Most Christians do not.) There is nothing in the text to make me doubt that. In fact, there is specifically a gift of "miracles" in 1 Cor. 12:10, which would be strange if all of the gifts were miraculous.
Now, God has gifted me in languages, so I teach languages and translate the Bible. This gift is clearly not miraculous, but clearly from God.
Paul makes the point that what is spoken...must be understood (vv.16-18).
There are two tongues in view in this chapter, the valid gift (which Paul had) and the "tongues" which did not edify, caused confusion, and edified only those speaking in the "tongue," which is contrary to why we gather in the first place.
Paul states he will pray with spirit and the understanding, as opposed to just doing something for no purpose (v.14).
1 Corinthians 14:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
And how most people who "speak in tongues" today learn how to do this is...they are taught. "Just clear your mind and utter whatever comes into your head."
And the gifts of God are not learned, they are given.
God bless.
I will say that there is such a thing as speaking in the tongues of angels according to the bible:
1 Corntihains 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
However, this falls through for those claiming that glossolalia is the tongues of angels (I say this having before thought I spoke in such languages with the "gift" of tongues):
1. Test it with a linguist. People need to see if what they are speaking is a coherent language or gibberish. I did this once thinking I would be proved in my belief my glossolalia was real language, only to find out it was gibberish when you applied linguistics to it.
2. Do those who "speak in tongues" ever speak in the tongues of men? They should be able to speak in both heavenly and earthly languages if they have the real gift of tongues. It seems like obfuscation if they say that they always speak in the tongues of angels.
1 Corntihains 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
However, this falls through for those claiming that glossolalia is the tongues of angels (I say this having before thought I spoke in such languages with the "gift" of tongues):
1. Test it with a linguist. People need to see if what they are speaking is a coherent language or gibberish. I did this once thinking I would be proved in my belief my glossolalia was real language, only to find out it was gibberish when you applied linguistics to it.
2. Do those who "speak in tongues" ever speak in the tongues of men? They should be able to speak in both heavenly and earthly languages if they have the real gift of tongues. It seems like obfuscation if they say that they always speak in the tongues of angels.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I'm a cessationist believing tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge would end when "that which is perfect came". That which is perfect (complete) being the writings that now make up the New Testament. (More if interest develops)
John, I think you have put your finger squarely on an important issue that has received very little attention in conservative, biblical Christianity.
I take a little different position than most baptists in that I believe all of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit have passed away. (See Larry Pettegrew’s The New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit.)
But I also believe that God gifts us Providentially with other talents, abilities, "gifts" if you must (but I try to avoid using the word "gifts" in this context to avoid confusion with the miraculous spiritual gifts) that are so very useful in our ministries.
I believe these gifts are often given via our DNA. For instance, our Music Minister has an amazing ability to play just about any musical instrument, and has an excellent singing voice too. His father has been Minister of Music in their home (Baptist) church for over 40 years. Our Music Minister has a son who is 12. He started playing the clarinet this past year and has done very well. He was at choir practice with his dad yesterday evening and his dad asked him to show him what he was going to play at band practice tomorrow in school. He played the clarinet part of "The Entertainer" by Scott Joplin. His dad accompanied him on the piano. After his dad got up from the piano he sat down and played "The Entertainer" entirely by memory, and had to transpose it in his head in order to play it (clarinet is a B-flat instrument, as is a trumpet, and a piano is a C-natural instrument - in other words, a C on the trumpet or clarinet is a B-flat on the piano).
Gift? Talent? Ability? Certainly not a miracle. There is no "gift of piano playing" that I am aware of.
But there is the Providential enabling of persons to do things that the average person cannot do.
My Providential ability is to irritate people on the Baptist Board.
Interesting topic.
Hyperbole. Just as "gong" and "cymbal" are hyperbole. Paul was neither a gong nor a cymbal. He was a man. An exaggerated statement not meant to be taken literally.
"Even if I speak every language people speak (which I don't), or even if I spoke angel language (which doesn't exist) but don't do so in love . . ." etc.
Hyperbole, "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."
Most of the baptists that I have fellowship with over the years believe that the sign gifts and the tongues ceased, but that God can and still does on His schedule divine healings and miracles, but those are not the normative way that He does things today.John, I think you have put your finger squarely on an important issue that has received very little attention in conservative, biblical Christianity.
I take a little different position than most baptists in that I believe all of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit have passed away. (See Larry Pettegrew’s The New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit.)
But I also believe that God gifts us Providentially with other talents, abilities, "gifts" if you must (but I try to avoid using the word "gifts" in this context to avoid confusion with the miraculous spiritual gifts) that are so very useful in our ministries.
I believe these gifts are often given via our DNA. For instance, our Music Minister has an amazing ability to play just about any musical instrument, and has an excellent singing voice too. His father has been Minister of Music in their home (Baptist) church for over 40 years. Our Music Minister has a son who is 12. He started playing the clarinet this past year and has done very well. He was at choir practice with his dad yesterday evening and his dad asked him to show him what he was going to play at band practice tomorrow in school. He played the clarinet part of "The Entertainer" by Scott Joplin. His dad accompanied him on the piano. After his dad got up from the piano he sat down and played "The Entertainer" entirely by memory, and had to transpose it in his head in order to play it (clarinet is a B-flat instrument, as is a trumpet, and a piano is a C-natural instrument - in other words, a C on the trumpet or clarinet is a B-flat on the piano).
Gift? Talent? Ability? Certainly not a miracle. There is no "gift of piano playing" that I am aware of.
But there is the Providential enabling of persons to do things that the average person cannot do.
My Providential ability is to irritate people on the Baptist Board.
Interesting topic.
One woman in our church has her Liver reject a transplant, and is now in dire need to find another doner, while another has cancer in her kidney, both seeking medical help, but all of us now also praying to God to heal her by either a direct touch or a surgeon knife.
Then they were not the same.
The tongues in both settings were actual real languages though!
They are exactly the same. If I speak Spanish and a Spanish speaker is listening, no translator is necessary.
But if I speak Spanish and no Spanish speaker is present, then a translator is necessary.