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Sign Gifts
- Thread starter Berean
- Start date
Either that, or you ate a really weird pizza night before!If I woke up tomorrow speaking Mandarin then I would take it as a supernatural hint that God wants me in China.
Or San Francisco.If I woke up tomorrow speaking Mandarin then I would take it as a supernatural hint that God wants me in China.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I have significant issues with what passes for 'speaking in Tongues' in many modern churches. I also have deep issues with what passes for 'preaching' on most television.
However the abuses of practitioners of the 'prosperity gospel' do not negate the veracity of the true gospel of Scripture. In the same way, the nonsense of modern charlatans who claim to teach 'tongues' or to have the power to grant spiritual gifts by their 'sacred touch' does not negate the scriptural differences between the description of tongues in Acts and Corinthians or the apparent differences in the purpose of tongues between Acts and Corinthians.
Even if all of the charismata have ceased (frankly a weak argument read into scripture), there are real differences between Acts and Corinthians that are being ignored or glossed over.
Life is just too short to invest vast quantities of time arguing over it.
I wish my Pentecostal friends would stop speaking in tongues, so the rest of the church could stop focusing on tongues and start to see the heart that makes a Pentecostal church different from a Baptist Church. I wish my Southern Baptist brothers and sisters had half their unbridled passion.
Thank you for the blessing, He has.
May the Lord keep you safe in the palm of his hand through all the storms of life.
Great post, Doc. Sounds like a young musical genius of the highest order is there. God bless him!John, I think you have put your finger squarely on an important issue that has received very little attention in conservative, biblical Christianity.
I take a little different position than most baptists in that I believe all of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit have passed away. (See Larry Pettegrew’s The New Covenant Ministry of the Holy Spirit.)
But I also believe that God gifts us Providentially with other talents, abilities, "gifts" if you must (but I try to avoid using the word "gifts" in this context to avoid confusion with the miraculous spiritual gifts) that are so very useful in our ministries.
I believe these gifts are often given via our DNA. For instance, our Music Minister has an amazing ability to play just about any musical instrument, and has an excellent singing voice too. His father has been Minister of Music in their home (Baptist) church for over 40 years. Our Music Minister has a son who is 12. He started playing the clarinet this past year and has done very well. He was at choir practice with his dad yesterday evening and his dad asked him to show him what he was going to play at band practice tomorrow in school. He played the clarinet part of "The Entertainer" by Scott Joplin. His dad accompanied him on the piano. After his dad got up from the piano he sat down and played "The Entertainer" entirely by memory, and had to transpose it in his head in order to play it (clarinet is a B-flat instrument, as is a trumpet, and a piano is a C-natural instrument - in other words, a C on the trumpet or clarinet is a B-flat on the piano).
Gift? Talent? Ability? Certainly not a miracle. There is no "gift of piano playing" that I am aware of.
But there is the Providential enabling of persons to do things that the average person cannot do.
My Providential ability is to irritate people on the Baptist Board.
Interesting topic.
The Charasmatics would do themselves a big help if they as a group renounced as heresy the faith teachers, prosperity, the modern day Apostles/prophets!
Felipe Rios
Member
Same
Felipe Rios
Member
Paul was simply using that as an example. If that is the case, that means we can remove mountains with our faith. If that is so? Who has removed a mountain with their faith?
Yes, but all people there are not hearing their own language as in Acts 2.
As do I.
As do I.
I don't view the health/wealth crowd to be the only ones at fault. There are just as serious doctrinal errors being presented by those who we might think conservative and fundamental. I would rather see a health/wealth preacher getting that wrong but getting the Gospel right, than to see finger pointing by men who also negate the veracity, the magnitude of the Gospel of Christ.
Sooner or later the people in health/wealth crowds are going to catch on, if they are saved, because they are going to be led by God in regards to His truth. But no-one is going to benefit from what is essentially a works-based gospel being presented by most. Most think we are saved by faith through grace, when in fact we are saved by grace through faith, and that is how men have always been saved. If you examine the "gospel" being preached, even on this forum, you might understand why some people spend more time talking about men than they do Christ.
A false gospel only breeds religion.
Just because some Charismatics and Pentecostals practice ecstatic speech doesn't mean they are not saved, and doesn't mean they preach a false gospel. No more than gross errors of reformed theology means one cannot be saved through the Gospel.
There is a difference, I pointed that out in my post: Paul is dealing with a false gift, and rebukes them for their behavior. When he is speaking of himself speaking in languages, it is the valid gift. But we can see his rebuke of what they are doing:
1 Corinthians
14 King James Version (KJV)
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Now, the true gift of languages is for the purpose of what? Correct...speaking to men:
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
We see how the gift speaks to other people in Acts 2, where we also see they spoke with other tongues.
Here, the rebuke is...you aren't doing what the gift is prophesied and witnessed to do.
Speaking mysteries means...nothing is revealed.
Now look at the contrast to speaking in a "tongue:"
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
AGain, a true gift is spoken of, and it is used to speak to men.
A primary point Paul is trying to get across to the Corinthians is that whatever they do they should do for the edification of the Body.
He contrasts true and false again:
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Paul isn't giving two options for Christians. He is rebuking their self interested efforts. The one speaking in a "tongue" which is directed at what they were doing is edifying himself. And isn't this what we see with ecstatic speech? What possible edification does the Body receive from someone speaking in unintelligible speech? None. But if one prophesies (speaks forth the Word of God), the Body is edified.
See the contrast?
Continued...
I agree.
Friend, this is a debate forum, that is just what we do, debate. It's only an argument when arguments meant to make points are ignored, and opinions are given which are disagreed with yet not addressed.
Just because they speak in tongues doesn't mean they do not love Christ and seek to see men saved. We have to consider that most people are indoctrinated into the group they are either saved in or raised up in. And all groups can be found to be in error on something.
We don't usually see this outside of their own meetings, and I have only witnessed a few that meet Paul's rebuke here:
1 Corinthians 14:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad
No-one benefits when men are disobedient to Paul's teaching in this chapter. I have witnessed this type of madness myself.
I just wish there were more Southern Baptists here.
But you cannot gauge the zeal of any believer based on the group they are part of.
And may God bless you as well.
God bless.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
No, I meant that literally. I left an independent Pentecostal Church to attend a Southern Baptist Church with children my daughter's age because she needs help and practice with social skills (Asperger's). So I have a lot of friends at the Pentecostal Church and a lot of relatives (in-laws) at the Southern Baptist Church. According to one of those online tests, I am a 100% theological match for Reformed Baptist (whatever that is).
So you have at least one more Southern Baptist around here (with Pentecostal roots and Reformed theological leanings).
Might count for partial credit.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Yes, and I 100% agree that if the Body (church) is being edified, then it is likely from God and if all attention is on any person ... the Holy Spirit has likely left the building. One thing our Pentecostal Pastor emphasized is that God will share his glory with no man.
On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 12:10 mentions both tongues and interpretation as manifestations of the Spirit for the common good without any connotation of a rebuke. This suggests that there is a tongues and an interpretation that is not 'faking it' and is somehow different from Acts 2 where no interpretation was needed because everyone heard their own native language.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 NASB
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
This is good, because as I'm sure you well know, most tongues-speaking churches consider it a badge of spirituality, the proof that one is filled with the Spirit (as opposed to the Biblical proof).
May I point out here that while the "prosperity gospel" and the rest of the Charismatic heresies do not negate the true Gospel, the movement is devastating churches all over the world. As a missionary to Japan, I saw my church attacked three times by Charismatics (lost believers one time). I've been to Africa and heard about it there from the Africans and missionaries. I've talked to missionaries to Latin America and heard about it there.
Just last night heard an update from a national pastor in a Muslim country leading a church planting movement. He spoke of a Marilyn Hickey campaign over there with literally tens of 1000s attending, including 1000s of Muslims. But here "sermon" was all about herself and the "miracles" she had seen, completely void of the Gospel.
Because of the above facts, that the Charismatic Movement is devastating not just the US but the mission fields of the world, we certainly do need to spend time discussing it, even arguing about it, helping people avoid it. Note the following heresies of the movement (including tongues):
1. tongues
2. "health and wealth"
3. healing meetings (not in the Bible)
4.The "manifest sons of God"
5. The "laughing revival"
6. "tarrying" to receive the Holy Spirit
7. healing in the atonement
8. ecumenism
9. advanced revelation (in addition to the canon of Scripture)
And there are more.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
When you say "we certainly do need to spend time discussing it" ... does that obligate me to defend the legitimacy of a non-cessationist position on a board hopelessly dominated by cessationists condemning me to a lengthy, unproductive and unpleasant encounter? Or am I free to believe that 'life is too short' and bow out of that argument. So far, I have endeavored to restrict my focus to the actual difference between Acts and 1 Corinthians with as little discussion of modern tongues as is necessary to move on with the Acts/Corinthians discussion.
I've heard several preachers say that we should have a Baptist head, a Pentecostal heart, and Jehovah's Witness feet.
True, there were the need to have someone able to give in the native language what was being stated by the tongues, but the tongue given forth was still a real language!
That is hyperbole. It is incredibly rare that someone in God's work needs a literal mountain moved. However, I have read of such a case wherein a school on the mission field needed a hill moved next to their building. They prayed, and lo and behold, the next day a bulldozer took away the hill for someone to have the dirt.
I was a teacher Elder in the AOG, and while i disagree with them still on how they view the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, Tongues, and sign gifts, do see them as being teaching the real Gospel message, but do see many of those teaching in the word of Faith/prosperity/modern day revelation thru prophets and apostles as teaching heresy!
I have no power on earth to obligate you to do anything, nor does the BB. You are here of your own free will, and can leave at any time. I simply objected (very strongly) to your seeming belief that these issues need not be discussed by anyone.
As for tongues, that is not the greatest of the Pentecostal/Charismatic heresies, but it is definitely a heresy in the original, Biblical Greek meaning: something that causes division. Countless churches have been split by it. If you want to bow out, that's fine, no problem. But I'm here to help those deceived by it. I'm not so concerned with the Cessationist discussion.
Let me point out one last thing. Historically and doctrinally there is a big difference between the old line Pentecostals and the modern Charismatic movement which began in the 1960's. Unfortunately, the old line Pentecostals have not stepped up to the plate to condemn the Charismatic heresies, IMO.