Simple Question?????

Grrrrr

Choice - Decide - whosoever will - act upon

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The purpose of this passage is to point out the sin of not believing - and that this verse addresses three groups

John 7:37 ¶ In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Isaiah 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

These verses each referring to having to do an action to be satisfied

1 Kings 18:21 ¶ And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Why need we to know

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We have to do something we just sit on our tushies and get saved or damned by a cosmic diceroll!

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Psalms 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Psalms 116:13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.
Psalms 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

The concept of salvation is shown in its mighty power - but to seal the deal one has to claim it.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Philippians 3:9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble......

The continuation goes on to faith and works - But I really want you to think about that verse - that passage what it means in regards to free will - and to salvation

There are more - but Im tired and I think this should get the point across

Oh one more

"Come let us reason together"

God is not seeking robots but servants and friends - companionship such as what we were created for

 

Jesus will not lose one of His blood-bought sheep. Jesus said in John 10:26-27, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." He never said anything about "offering" them eternal life. Salvation is not an offer. The everlasting covenant is ordered in all things and sure (II Samuel 23:5). Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, sealed that everlasting covenant with His own precious blood (Hebrews 13:20). Nothing dependent upon the "free will" of man is "ordered in all things and sure." Paul wrote in Romans 9:16, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Adam certainly had a choice not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I recently posted something dealing with that issue on the "Total Depravity" thread. Revelation 3:20 was written to the apostate church of the Laodiceans. Examine the context. John 3:16 has been exhaustively explained. It might be of some benefit to search the Scriptures and learn how the word "world" is used. In Romans 11:12, the word "world" is used to describe the Gentiles. It is used in the same way in I John 2:2. John wrote in John 11:52, "And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." Jesus did not come to make children of God. He came to die for them. John 1:12 does not prove anything. Verse 13 reads, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The same "us-ward" in II Peter 3:9, is the same "us-ward who belive, according to the working of his mighty power" in Ephesians 1:19. Matthew 7:13-14 is not referring to eternity. The "life" under consideration is the life that Jesus came to give us more abundantly (John 10:10) through the blessings and joys of our salvation in time. It is not eternal salvation under consideration, but "gospel salvation." Faith in Jesus Christ is not an arbitrary decision. Jesus said in John 6:65, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." He also said in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

[ December 30, 2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

This is a forum for orthodox Christian believers. This statement violates the rules for this forum. If this is an accurate reflection of your beliefs, then you need to restrict your posting to the "other religions" forum. In this forum, we do not allow posts from those who do not agree to basic biblical soteriology.

If this statement is not what you mean, then please clarify.

 

Faith is what saves, Grace merely enables one to know God.

Consider Hebrews 11: A whole chapter devoted to Faith of the ancients being counted unto them for righteousness e.g., Abraham's Faith was counted unto him for righteousness.

If Faith was what counted for Abraham, why is faith not sufficient for us? In Abraham's time God's grace was prevailent, why wasn't it Grace that was counted as righteousness unto Abraham? Faith saved Abraham, and it is faith that saves us today?

So what about Grace? Grace is an attribute that constrains other attributes. That is, while grace is present, can justice be meted out? Do you not think it odd that one can be gracious while handing out death to all who sin? God's Grace actually prevents him from executing the wage for sin. God brings rain to the just and the unjust alike. God brings sunshine to just and unjust alike. God is gracious to the just and the unjust alike. The unjust do not get saved by grace!

Jesus teaches throughout the Gospels that we are to believe (have faith)!

Show me where he says that Grace brings eternal life.
Show me where he tells us that if we have grace we can move mountains.
Or, that grace does anything in the human spirit!

Jesus simply does not equate grace with salvation, and neither do I. Grace is the big room in which the events of salvation take place.

"For by grace are ye saved through Faith..." While grace is present, you are saved by believing..."

Prove it to yourself if you have an electronic bible. Do a word search of only the four Gospels for the word "Grace". You will find a couple instances of it being used and none in the context of salvation. Then do a search for the word "Believe", You will find 80 or more instances, and "Faith" returns nearly 50 hits, and "Believed" returns 17 hits.

IF GRACE is what SAVES, don't you think THE SAVIOR would have picked up on that and used the word "grace" in association with Salvation and any of the terms that are associated with salvation such as eternal life? He didn't though and every instance of Salvation is associated with believe, believed, and Faith!

Faith in the Savior is what saves!

If you think I am wrong, prove me wrong! If you can't you'd better re-examine your beliefs.

 

If I had to go to another city and the only way to get there was by the bus(faith), that is all well and good. But I can't get on the bus without a ticket(grace). So the bus is counted for transport. Likewise, faith is counted for righteousness. Still it is ticket that gets you on the bus.

 

Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

1 Peter 1:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

Clearly, the Bible declares that salvation is by grace through faith. No one here (except the primitives) are denying the necessity of faith. That is not the issue. But when you deny that salvation is by grace, then you have denied the explicit teaching of Scripture. All you need to do is look at the text and adjust your theology around the text of Scripture.

 

I don't recall my mom offering me a choice, "Hey kid, you want to be born or not? I'd make the decision for you but I really don't want to violate your free will."

But then I was pretty young at the time, so I might have forgotten.

 

Of course if you expand your search beyond the Gospels, you'll find verses like Ephesians 2:8. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

And if you do a search for the words "free will" in the entire Bible in the context of salvation, you come up with the following verses:

 

If Jesus died for all the sins of the whole world does that mean He died for the sin of unbelief? If your answer is yes then all will be in heaven and there will be no one in hell. If He died for the Church, the family of God, His people, then His work within them (he works within belivers to will and to do of His good pleasure) will be evidence of their heritage being children of God, rather than children of the father of lies. Salvation is evidential not speculative.

 

And prisoners are free to go wherever they like. It's just that their perimeters have been corrupted a little, right?

Shout all you like, but statements like the above are still nonsense. A free will which has been corrupted is obviously no longer free.

 

'Did Jesus die for the sin of unbelief?'

He did die for the sin of unbelief in the sense that those who refuse to receive
Christ remain in their sins forever as recorded in John 3:18b,c. If a person believes savingly in Jesus Christ then that sin is remitted. [John 3:18a] When a sinner remains in his or her sins, then that sin of unbelief is laid to their account and they will be responsible for it at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11-15]

 

Well folks, Jesus own words are simply not found outside of the Gospels with the exception of Revelation. The rest of the New Testament is the apostle's interpretation of how we are to live our lives now that we believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah.

Jesus is the head of the Church, and I firmly believe that His words are what Christianity is all about. He uses the words Believe, Believed, and Faith to describe what we must have to be saved. If we do not have faith and believe in Him, we are self condemned, regardless of the amount of GRACE that abounds. If Jesus is not the core of our existance, we "build our houses on the sand".

If Grace is what saves, why do you pray in the name of Jesus our savior? Why not instead pray "in the face of Grace our savior"? Grace is not a person and cannot save anyone. Grace may be the rope by which we are pulled to safety, but who does the pulling? Ropes do not pull by themselves.

God's grace exists for the just and unjust alike, why are the unjust not saved? Could it be because Grace does not save?

All of us get the very same grace, yet the road to hell is broad and many there are that travel it. Narrow is the path to heaven and few there are that find it.

Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me. I believe Jesus!

Accept grace for what it is, the environment in which we "Hear the word" for "Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God". Faith is what saves, NOT GRACE!

[ December 31, 2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Does self-remission equate to the fulfillment of self-redemption as well? Can we remit/atone for all of our own sins, or is this one considered exceptional? Self-covering? Hmmmmmmm. Sounds of aberrant soteriology to me. I repectively don't hold man in quite as high esteem. My preference is a high view of God and a low view of man. But I do fully realize the low popularity of that kind of thinking. With all due respect I have difficulties in the nomenclature of semi-pelagianism and pelagianism.
My brother, may we agree to disagree?

 

This assumes that man can self remit and that man can self redeem. I have not, and never will, say that man can self remit or self redeem, or self atone. I am saying that God does not redeem the unwilling. Look at the flood! It is only when their death was immenant that the people sought salvation from the flood. But alas it was too late, they did not "hear and prepare" as did Noah!

Man can make himself willing by "Hearing the Word", with the meaning of "Hearing" being to accept knowledge from the Word, and acting upon that knowledge. Even the most vile person on earth has the ability to hear and act. But through there own self will they are unwilling. Does God owe them anything?

 

Surely you consider the epistles just as authoritative as Christ's words in the gospels. Don't you?????

 

Not when they are in seeming conflict with Jesus regarding Salvation.

Jesus says it is belief in Him that saves. That which conflicts with what Jesus says, or causes one to think there must be something else or that something is missing from Jesus words that causes one to think otherwise is not acceptable.

Jesus came to to seek and to save! Motivation! The apostles were and are the saved. There is an inherent difference in perspective. Gift giver vs. recipient.

No I do not consider the Epistles just as authoritative as Christ's words in the Gospels, they simply are not aimed at the same target audience. The Gospels introduce the unsaved to Jesus, and give reason to believe. The Epistles are addressed to believers to reinforce their belief and give instruction to believers on how to live according to Christian principles. The Gospel saves, the Epistles instruct. Without the Gospel, who would ever elect to live the Christian life?

 

Well, now we know why discussing these things with you is so difficult. We are not using the same text as as the measure of truth. It makes real discussion impossible.

 

Read what I posted russell55 and stop twisting what I said. If you have a different opinion state it but don't villify me because of what I see in the scriptures and what authority I give to the respective players.

Jesus is the only begotten (conceived) Son of God, therefore, Jesus is God! The Apostles are human of human mother AND father, therefore they cannot be God.

Now you must decide whose words have the authority, God or man?

[ December 31, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Where did I twist what you said? I quoted it exactly as you wrote it. And you just said the same thing again in this last post.

And how in the world did I villify you? I just said it makes real discussion impossible. The "rule" that most of the rest of us in this forum go by (even those I disagree strongly with) is the complete authority of the whole of scripture. That gives us an agreed upon common point to start the discussion from. If you don't agree with that starting point, then then there's really not much point in even getting into the real discussion, 'cause I guarantee you, we'll just be discussing past each other.

Well, I'll go along with the Jesus being the Son of God part. Someday, perhaps we can get into the "conceived" part. (I believe He was co-eternal with the Father.)

Agreed.

God's words have authority. But the "God-breathed" text of the apostles is just as authoritative as the very words of Christ, because it was the Holy Spirit who worked within them to produce the text that they did. The words of the apostles are also "God's words".