Simple yes or no question...

[KenH]

Scott,

I concede the point. One can make a choice to choose all.

By His sovereign choice did not choose all people for salvation, as all people are not saved. So my point that God does not choose everyone for salvation still stands.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
No such thing is scripture as common grace. Your site is predicated on a falsity.

Will you listen to the Scriptures then?

Matthew 5:45(NASB)so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If that is not describing common grace, then what is it describing?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Frogman]

No, I have not always been able to receive spiritual truth, and some things I am certain I cannot yet receive.

Yes, at one time I was a "they," I possessed the same nature by birth; I became disassociated with "they" when God seperated me by the preaching of the Gospel through the Holy Spirit and yes (effectually) and (irresistably) {same}; taught to me my position and showed me my redeemer.

The misconception is the two ideas of proclaiming and effectiveness of the Gospel. The Gospel is to be proclaimed to all, in this way it is universal; it is effective (and irresistable) only to those God has chosen; in this way it is not universal; (obviously based upon the continued actions of sinful persons throughout the world).

How do we explain simple facts that divorce is growing among our Christian brothers and sisters?

As much as half of all Christian marriages end this way. Why? Because, the will of man (or woman) have been taught widespread as being more effectual (irresistable) than that of God. Choices are made by lust, not by the spirit. This is because of error in teaching that we may choose God; ( In choosing something we always reject something else) If we are the primary agents in choosing God, then when the temptations are too great, we once again rely upon our capacities; (not being fully taught of the sufficiency of the grace of God). When we rely upon our own capacities, saved or not, we fall into sin, not "affairs" nor any other diluted word, but sin. This is why I believe it to be important to remain solid in the irresisible grace of God; it teaches more fully where our strength is to be found;

I do not derive any satisfaction from this, you are correct, but unless the will of man be broken, he cannot be saved. I believe that to be biblical.

I believe others hate my views because they are truth.

I am not seeking for widespread popularity, nor little popularity. I am seeking only to witness to the truth that is found in scripture. that is all, if the world hate me, it is because they hated Him first.

Your posts do not offend me in the least. Present your case in whatever way, I don't mind.

God Bless you in your walk and service with Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Before God, Bro Dallas; make the claim that Paul made. Make it for your family, your children. But let me hear you make it sincerly.

I told you brother, I cannot make the claim. I have no power to save even my children, though my heart does yearn for that event. I believe God will deal and be merciful, but I still cannot provide a covering for them, a false security would be a greater hurt to them than being otherwise I believe.

I am sincere when I say I cannot make the claim. When we stand before God our focus will be upon Christ, and upon God, we will be as He is, our human emotions will have no place there. We shall worship God and declare His righteousness even if he condemns our loved ones. This is difficult to understand and sounds cold I know, but it is truth. If my whole family are saved and I am not, or if I am and they are not, God is still righteous and holy.

Your position forces upon God the emotional feelings of man.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Scott,

I concede the point. One can make a choice to choose all.

By His sovereign choice did not choose all people for salvation, as all people are not saved. So my point that God does not choose everyone for salvation still stands.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

Skipped a point without proof...

Your point falls again.

 

[russell55]

Russell:
You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

What is it about that verse that makes it scraping the bottom of the barrel? The scripture connects God love for the unjust (and the just) with His provision of earthly blessings. What part of it do you disagree with?

What have you seen given here on earth that is comparable to what God has waiting for those that go to heaven....

Of course not. But nevertheless, scripture says those earthly blessings are evidence of God's love, and I'd be really careful about disparaging them.

Wanna trade with one of those unelected dudes.

No, I don't. But I am also very aware that I absolutely, positively, deserve no better than they deserve.

I was a child of wrath, exactly like everyone else, when God, being rich in mercy, even when I was dead in my transgression, made me alive together with Christ (by grace I have been saved) and raised me up with Him, and seated me with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward me in Christ Jesus.

That's all I am...a demonstration of the surpassing riches of God's grace. God will point to me and say, "See, that's a demonstration of how gracious I am. I took that pond scum, and made it into a new creature, and seated it with Christ."

The sense of justice in calvinism (not yours) is really warped. It is laughable to say the least...

Where is the injustice? Is there anyone, in the calvinistic system, who can say, "Hey God! I deserve better than I got!"?

[ October 31, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Romans 9.17 makes alot of debate absurdity.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

9:16 all the more, since it directly addresses the will.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Or, as it is translated in the PTBV (Petreley's Totally Bogus Version), "It ain't free will, and it ain't works, it's God's mercy."

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by npetreley:
as it is translated in the PTBV (Petreley's Totally Bogus Version)

Have you run that version by the Bible Versions/Translations Forum yet?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Yelsew]

I'm a little late getting into this, but I want to point out to ScottEmerson a very simple truth that he has either failed to learn, or chooses to ignore.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Did God choose not to choose certain people to be elect based upon his wisdom and sovereignty?

Simple yes's or no's will suffice, then an explanation if you'd like.

God is not the one who must choose! He, in his infinite wisdom defines, and establishes. It is we who must choose!

Even so, Eternal God has known from before He Created who would and who would not believe and thus be saved. The choice is always ours!

[ October 31, 2002, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Frogman]

Even so, Eternal God has known from before He Created who would and who would not believe and thus be saved. The choice is always ours!

God did not dispense Grace according to the foreknowledge of who would and would not choose to believe the Gospel.

To say this hinges all upon works of man.

Grace is unmerited favor. To look forward and to see those who would choose to believe and bestowing Grace, renders it favor by merit.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
No such thing is scripture as common grace. Your site is predicated on a falsity.

Will you listen to the Scriptures then?

Matthew 5:45(NASB)so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If that is not describing common grace, then what is it describing?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

</font>[/QUOTE]OK, Kenneth, the spurgeonite. It is describing God's unconditional covenant with mankind. (BTW. The passage should give you a hint of how God deals with fallen man. See the application and equality of the covenant. All men are treated fairly and just} We are saved by Grace. Does this mean that these fellas are all saved... Of course not, you have another grace for that. Yet the bible only speaks of Grace.

There are three degrees of faith, but i never (never) heard of three different graces. Why should i believe you. You just found out that God can choose everybody. If you were wrong about that, why should i believe you now.

Really think through your response to this post. I have a trap set for you...

 

[Ray Berrian]

Farley,

Only Calvinists believe your poem of "God would be just" if He only saved one.

THIS WAS NOT HIS PLAN. A young Sunday School student will inform your types that He died on the Cross for all of His lost creation. 'For God {in His justice} so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.' [John 3:16 & Romans 3:22] Oh, in case some do not look up the last verse it reads: 'Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and on ALL those who believe, for there is no difference.'

Sorry to topple your poetic flair.

 

[npetreley]

I don't get your point about Romans 3:22. The section is about justification through the law vs. through faith.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Even so, Eternal God has known from before He Created who would and who would not believe and thus be saved. The choice is always ours!

God did not dispense Grace according to the foreknowledge of who would and would not choose to believe the Gospel.

To say this hinges all upon works of man.

Grace is unmerited favor. To look forward and to see those who would choose to believe and bestowing Grace, renders it favor by merit.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas</font>[/QUOTE]Wrong Frogman, Grace is not a dispensable commodity like a paper towel, or toilet paper. God's gift of Grace is the environment that God established to protect man from His mighty justice and wrath, until man comes to know and believe in Him. Without God's grace, man would not survive past his first sin, for the wages of sin is death. Without grace we would not be here to have this discussion.

So grace is not part of the equation, which is, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God"! Grace is the room in which the equation lives.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
but i never (never) heard of three different graces.

Chappie,

Are you an Anabaptist? An Anabaptist would answer say something like that.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Frogman]

until man comes to know and believe in Him.

So, God continues to enlarge this room, until everyone believes and is saved?

What about those who die in thier unbelief? Are they always regenerated moments before death, or do they reincarnate until they get it right, finally?

Actually, the Bible says Hell hath enlarged her borders.

Apart from Grace you nor I would have the opportunity to know faith of any kind, true, we would feel the wrath of God poured out upon us. However, death being the wages of sin, Adam did not endure immediate death, nor the eternal wrath of God, instead, God visited him, dealt with him and redeemed him, in doing he showed him the sacrifice of the promised seed (Christ), Adam believed this and taught his children, Abel believed and followed the type looking forward to the Christ of God, Cain believed God was real, but substituted the works of his hand rather than bringing an innocent life to offer for his own.

Our bodies are still under the curse of the wages of sin, this will remain so until:

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Rom. 8.22-23

Yeah, death is defeated, but only through the quickening of the spirit, the flesh profiteth nothing. This present body must either pass away, or be changed.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Farley,

Only Calvinists believe your poem of "God would be just" if He only saved one.

Then at what point do you believe God becomes just? If He saves 3? 5? 1,000? Is it a per-capita thing?

 

[Yelsew]

So, God continues to enlarge this room, until everyone believes and is saved?

Until those who will, come!

The broad way that leads to condemnation is well traveled. The narrow road that leads to heaven is by comparison sparsely traveled. Many will neglect "so great a salvation". All are given the opportunity to "hear" (whatever form that takes), few, upon hearing, will choose the narrow path.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
but i never (never) heard of three different graces.

Chappie,
Are you an Anabaptist? An Anabaptist would answer say something like that.
Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Naaah, ima christian.
Are you going to show them to me, or talk me to death???

[ November 01, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[npetreley]

There are three degrees of faith, but i never (never) heard of three different graces.

Where have you been?

God's grace
Grace Kelley
Grace (Gracie) Allen