Sin into Death

[steaver]

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death".(1Jo 5:16-17)

I would like to see the board work this out through a trial and error approach.

In the passage we have a "death" verses "life" application.

If my brother is not committing a sin unto death then why does my prayer for his sin not unto death give him life?

What does it mean that he shall give him life when he did not commit any sin unto death?

Is this eternal life? I wouldn't think so, I cannot pray my brother into heaven, can I?

It seems like neither definition works. No matter what definition you give to "death" (eternal or physical) it still says the brother will be given "life" even though not committing a sin unto death in the first place.

Any light on the subject?

Sorry The title says "into" , it is a typo and should be "unto" . This edit would not let me change the title.

:jesus:

 

[Brother Bob]

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death".(1Jo 5:16-17)

I would like to see the board work this out through a trial and error approach.

In the passage we have a "death" verses "life" application.

If my brother is not committing a sin unto death then why does my prayer for his sin not unto death give him life?

What does it mean that he shall give him life when he did not commit any sin unto death?

Is this eternal life? I wouldn't think so, I cannot pray my brother into heaven, can I?

It seems like neither definition works. No matter what definition you give to "death" (eternal or physical) it still says the brother will be given "life" even though not committing a sin unto death in the first place.
2198
zaw
zao
dzah'-o
a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):--life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.



Any light on the subject?

Sorry The title says "into" , it is a typo and should be "unto" . This edit would not let me change the title.

:jesus:

Probably a "fullness" of life in Christ.

Bbob,

 

[steaver]

"Sin unto death" would have to mean a sin that brings condemnation and death must mean the second death.

Since a Christian cannot possibly commit such a sin, then if you would see a "brother" commit such a sin he must not truly be a brother born of God.

So the term "brother" is not spoken in the absolute sense of being a Christian? It may be that whom you thought to be a brother is really not?

:godisgood:

 

[Brother Bob]

"Sin unto death" would have to mean a sin that brings condemnation and death must mean the second death.

Since a Christian cannot possibly commit such a sin, then if you would see a "brother" commit such a sin he must not truly be a brother born of God.

So the term "brother" is not spoken in the absolute sense of being a Christian? It may be that whom you thought to be a brother is really not?

:godisgood:

Yea, thats what I said all along, but DHK will not agree with that.

BBob,

 

[Janosik]

"Sin unto death" would have to mean a sin that brings condemnation and death must mean the second death.

Since a Christian cannot possibly commit such a sin, then if you would see a "brother" commit such a sin he must not truly be a brother born of God.

So the term "brother" is not spoken in the absolute sense of being a Christian? It may be that whom you thought to be a brother is really not?

:godisgood:

That's a bold statement. How do you know?

 

[DHK]

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death".(1Jo 5:16-17)
A sin unto death is a physical sin committed by a Christian. The context says it is. James uses the word "brother," meaning Christian. We have no other choice but to believe that this is speaking of Christians.

The sin is physical.
Two examples: 1. Ananias and Sapphira were killed on the spot for their lie and their hypocrisy. Yes, I believer they were saved.
2. The believers in Corinth (1Cor.11:30)--some of them were killed by God for abusing the Lord's Table
--In both cases they died as a result of the judgement of God of bringing shame or reproach on the name of Christ. God judges sin. There is a consequence for sin; if not in this life, then in the life to come. We cannot determine what the judgment is, and it is not for us to outguess God. That is just plain wrong.

If a believer goes on in his rebellion against God, he surely will bring the judgment of God upon himself, whether in severe chastisement or possibly a premature death. Often I have heard Godly men pray: "Lord, if this man does not repent, I pray that you would take him out of this world, that further damage to your name is not done." He is praying that the sin of death might be carried out, that God's judgement would fall upon this man because there is no sign of repentance. Yes, Bob, there are such believers.

If such a believer does repent, then we have saved that person, not spiritually, but physically, from a pre-mature death. And that sin that he was living in shall be forgiven him for he will have repented of it or else he would have reaped the wrath of God. One cannot have it both ways.

 

[Brother Bob]

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death".(1Jo 5:16-17)
A sin unto death is a physical sin committed by a Christian. The context says it is. James uses the word "brother," meaning Christian. We have no other choice but to believe that this is speaking of Christians.

The sin is physical.
Two examples: 1. Ananias and Sapphira were killed on the spot for their lie and their hypocrisy. Yes, I believer they were saved.
2. The believers in Corinth (1Cor.11:30)--some of them were killed by God for abusing the Lord's Table
--In both cases they died as a result of the judgement of God of bringing shame or reproach on the name of Christ. God judges sin. There is a consequence for sin; if not in this life, then in the life to come. We cannot determine what the judgment is, and it is not for us to outguess God. That is just plain wrong.

If a believer goes on in his rebellion against God, he surely will bring the judgment of God upon himself, whether in severe chastisement or possibly a premature death. Often I have heard Godly men pray: "Lord, if this man does not repent, I pray that you would take him out of this world, that further damage to your name is not done." He is praying that the sin of death might be carried out, that God's judgement would fall upon this man because there is no sign of repentance. Yes, Bob, there are such believers.

If such a believer does repent, then we have saved that person, not spiritually, but physically, from a pre-mature death. And that sin that he was living in shall be forgiven him for he will have repented of it or else he would have reaped the wrath of God. One cannot have it both ways.

Some punishment..............

Phl 1:23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


BBob,

 

[DHK]

Some punishment..............

Phl 1:23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


BBob,

According to your logic, suicide and assisted should be OK in your books for it is better to be with the Lord. The Lord killed those in 1Cor.11:30. And accordingly it was punishment. They feared afterward. You can either believe the Bible or not. The same was true of Ananias and Sapphira. There was fear all around.
It was a punishment Bob. Your argument makes no sense. If it is better to be with the Lord in your thinking then just commit suicide and get it over with. Is this your logic.

 

[Brother Bob]

According to your logic, suicide and assisted should be OK in your books for it is better to be with the Lord. The Lord killed those in 1Cor.11:30. And accordingly it was punishment. They feared afterward. You can either believe the Bible or not. The same was true of Ananias and Sapphira. There was fear all around.
It was a punishment Bob. Your argument makes no sense. If it is better to be with the Lord in your thinking then just commit suicide and get it over with. Is this your logic.

Bad comparison. Suicide is murder, don't think that will work.

You do not believe to be with the Lord is better???

Rev 14:13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[DHK]

Bad comparison. Suicide is murder, don't think that will work.

You do not believe to be with the Lord is better???

You ignore context completely. Paul knew that he would be facing matyrdom, execution by the Roman government. He didn't have much of a choice. His preference was to live and be with them. He was giving them comfort. If he should die he would be going to a much better place. Paul would in no way be committing any crimes. And in no way would he be facing a judgment of God. He was ready to meet the Lord.

Others that would be judged by death would be meeting God as judge and it would be a fearful meeting with God as judge. They, in their sin of shaming Christ would not be ready to meet the Lord as their judge. Will you?

 

[Brother Bob]

You ignore context completely. Paul knew that he would be facing matyrdom, execution by the Roman government. He didn't have much of a choice. His preference was to live and be with them. He was giving them comfort. If he should die he would be going to a much better place. Paul would in no way be committing any crimes. And in no way would he be facing a judgment of God. He was ready to meet the Lord.

Others that would be judged by death would be meeting God as judge and it would be a fearful meeting with God as judge. They, in their sin of shaming Christ would not be ready to meet the Lord as their judge. Will you?

That is not true, Paul had a desire to die and be with Christ, but he chose for the sake of his brothers that it was best that he stay with them a while longer.

Read the scripture and quit making it up.

Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Phl 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.

Phl 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

BBob,

 

[Marcia]

The sin unto death is for believers - being taken out of this world.

Yes it is better to be with the Lord, but I can tell you right now that I do not want to die as a judgment from God! I would prefer to die while living life according to His will, not violating it.

 

[steaver]

If such a believer does repent, then we have saved that person, not spiritually, but physically, from a pre-mature death. And that sin that he was living in shall be forgiven him for he will have repented of it or else he would have reaped the wrath of God. One cannot have it both ways.

Let me say up front to all, I have no firm grasp on this passage of scripture, so when I question what someone post it is for my own understanding. I am not pushing any position for I have not settled on one as of yet.

With that said I need to question what you posted DHK,

First, the passage tells us to NOT pray for a believer if we see him sin a SIN UNTO DEATH.

Second, the passage tells us TO pray for a believer who sins NOT UNTO DEATH.

Third, and this is what is stumping me the most, the passage says that we should only pray for a believer who has committed a sin NOT UNTO DEATH and God will give the believer LIFE.

This is making no sense to me. If I am praying for a believer who has NOT committed any sin UNTO DEATH (physical death) then why does he need to recieve PHYSICAL LIFE as a result of my prayer?

You see what I am saying? If the believer is in no danger from committing a sin unto physical death, then why is he recieving physical LIFE as a result of my prayer?

(Capital letters are only for points of emphasis and not meant to be loud). :wavey:

I am perplexed! raying:

 

[Brother Bob]

The sin unto death is for believers - being taken out of this world.

Yes it is better to be with the Lord, but I can tell you right now that I do not want to die as a judgment from God! I would prefer to die while living life according to His will, not violating it.

Why? you do not believe your sins are counted against you, that they were all paid at the cross. You also believe you will be better off when you die, so Why???

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Let me say up front to all, I have no firm grasp on this passage of scripture, so when I question what someone post it is for my own understanding. I am not pushing any position for I have not settled on one as of yet.

With that said I need to question what you posted DHK,

First, the passage tells us to NOT pray for a believer if we see him sin a SIN UNTO DEATH.

Second, the passage tells us TO pray for a believer who sins NOT UNTO DEATH.

Third, and this is what is stumping me the most, the passage says that we should only pray for a believer who has committed a sin NOT UNTO DEATH and God will give the believer LIFE.

This is making no sense to me. If I am praying for a believer who has NOT committed any sin UNTO DEATH (physical death) then why does he need to recieve PHYSICAL LIFE as a result of my prayer?

You see what I am saying? If the believer is in no danger from committing a sin unto physical death, then why is he recieving physical LIFE as a result of my prayer?

(Capital letters are only for points of emphasis and not meant to be loud). :wavey:

I am perplexed! raying:

Let's look at the verse in another translation (WEB) where it might put things a bit more simple:

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don't say that he should make a request concerning this.

First, we all need prayer.
Second, only God knows those who are going to be judged. Like I said before: You can't outguess God.
Concerning the first part of the verse: Pray for an erring brother that he does repent, and avoids the judgement of God.
Concerning the second part of the verse: Sometimes it is wiser to pray that God would take the person out of the world if he is determined to go on in his sin.
The purpose is two fold:
1. That the shame he brings on the name of Christ will be stopped.
2. That the judgement of God that He will face in the future will be lessened.

 

[Brother Bob]

Let's look at the verse in another translation (WEB) where it might put things a bit more simple:

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don't say that he should make a request concerning this.

First, we all need prayer.
Second, only God knows those who are going to be judged. Like I said before: You can't outguess God.
Concerning the first part of the verse: Pray for an erring brother that he does repent, and avoids the judgement of God.
Concerning the second part of the verse: Sometimes it is wiser to pray that God would take the person out of the world if he is determined to go on in his sin.
The purpose is two fold:
1. That the shame he brings on the name of Christ will be stopped.
2. That the judgement of God that He will face in the future will be lessened.

And he that is taken will be "far better" being with Christ. No punishment whatsoever.

BBob,

 

[steaver]

Concerning the first part of the verse: Pray for an erring brother that he does repent, and avoids the judgement of God.

But if the sin unto death is a physical death due to the judgment of God, like Ananias and Sapphira, the verse says do not pray for this sin.

Concerning the second part of the verse: Sometimes it is wiser to pray that God would take the person out of the world if he is determined to go on in his sin.

I am failing to see this in the second part of the verse. "There is a sin leading to death. I don't say that he should make a request concerning this." The verse is saying don't pray for this sin.


The WEB translation doesn't seem to help me any. Sorry raying:

 

[steaver]

And he that is taken will be "far better" being with Christ. No punishment whatsoever.

BBob,

Hey brother? Can you help with the verse? :wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey brother? Can you help with the verse? :wavey:

I did over and over, but again, its saying how impossible it is to overtake a brother committing such a sin, because there will be not more sacrifice made for him. There are other scripture that say the same.

Hope that helps, but doubt it.

BBob,

 

[steaver]

Hope that helps, but doubt it.

BBob,

Your right, it doesn't help.

God Bless! raying: