Bob thinks that somehow it is better to face the Lord in judgement (and be with the Lord that way), than to be with the Lord, ready to meet him and be crowned with rewards. I wonder how Ananias and Sapphira faced Jesus Christ?steaver said:Your right, it doesn't help.
God Bless!raying:
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Sin into Death
- Thread starter steaver
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Brother Bob
New Member
Same thing you posted, and when you put it in writing its there for life.steaver said:Your right, it doesn't help.
God Bless!
Post #3
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Brother Bob
New Member
Steaver believes same as I do. Post #3DHK said:
So, you believe he lost his salvation, or never had it one, if he is going to face the Lord in judgement.
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Romans 14:12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.Brother Bob said:
1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will be revealed. For the Day will declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself will test what sort of work each man's work is.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
First, I take the Bible literally and don't make excuses for its terminology. If the Bible uses the word "brother," it uses it for a reason. It doesn't mean false brother, pretend brother or any other lie. It means brother or Christian. The Holy Spirit doesn't lie.
Second, I don't believe that a brother or a believer can lose his salvation.
Third, as per the above Scripture, I believe that we will all give account of ourselves. We will all face Christ as our judge someday. The Bible says that God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. That presupposes that there are tears to wipe away. Where do you think those tears will come from?
Brother Bob
New Member
DHK said:
Yes, we will either have all sins wiped away, or still in our sin. There will be no "Why did you do this or not do that" for the names will already be enrolled in the Book of life.
You either believe in an Omniscience God or you do not.
BBob,
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Marcia
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Even believers will give an account to God.
For their words:
And more:
Yes, our sins are paid for but would you rather die doing something against God and get taken out for that reason than die while doing something that glorifies God? You keep ignoring the believers in Corinthians who were taken home by God beause of their abuse of the Lord's Supper.
I don't know why people die.Janosik said:
God does. It is a fact that some people die by the hand of God in judgment for sin. We see that in Acts 5:1-10 in the lives of Ananias and Sapphira, and we also see it in the Corinthian believers in 1Cor.11:30.
We hear statements from preachers (many of them unwise statements) that God has judged America (and other nations) with early deaths because of sexual immorality and has sent a plague called AIDS. I am not ready to proclaim it a direct judgment of God and call the result as "sins of death," as defined by the Bible, but there are some that would.
Only God knows what the "sin of death" is. We don't.
It is God that judges by death. Not we.
There is a problem which is raised by saying we cannot know if a brother has sinned unto death. John says to us, "If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death,"
According to this verse, I should be able to distinguish a sin unto death from a sin not unto death. No?
raying:I wouldn't, I would like for people to understand this scripture first time round so that they are blessed by it, instead of being unsure of their salvation.
Since scripture is is explained by other scripture, this is what the above scripture means:
I Corinthians 5:1-5 - It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
It is clear that Paul is talking to Christians here because he mentions the words "as absent in the body, but present in the spirit, have judged already, as though I were present..." Clearly Paul is telling them their spirits would be saved, but the death they suffer is a physical death here on earth.
Ananias and Saphhira had also committed the sin unto death - which is not to be confused with the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
These are my questions. You see the question marks brother? (you have trouble with question marks, don't you?) JUST KIDDING brother! I love you and want your input :love2:
I am not convinced of what I pondered, I am just throwing out possibilities to be scrutinized. Maybe it will turn out to be the final answer. But most say that if it says "brother" then it is a true brother and this then causes problems since a true brother cannot possibly sin unto eternal death and thus the instructions to not pray for a brother whom you see sin unto eternal death would make no logical sense because it is then telling us to watch for something that could never happen in the first place.
In this letter as a whole, John is speaking about false brethern much of the time. So could it be that seeing a brother sin unto death is seeing a so called brother denying that Jesus is the Christ? Thus he is one of these false brethern John has spoken of?
I want to put forth possibilities and have others help to confirm or reject them so as to get to a sound conclusion.
It seems to me thus far that John has to be speaking of sins that can be distinguished from unto death and not unto death. For he states "if a man see this sin" Is this debateable?
I am trying to work through this. I want to know the truth on sound possibilities and not what just sounds good to established theologies.
:jesus:
Brother Bob
New Member
There is a thing called the "second death" that our sins bring upon us, that we need Christ to overcome. You can't over come the natural death, but if you have the Spirit of Christ in you, it will in the resurrection "quicken" your mortal body.Marcia said:
Not all of it is debatable. But we can try to come to the best possible understanding. Let's begin by looking at the context.steaver said:
1 John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
John had been teaching on prayer. A principle he sets forth is that God answers prayer according to his will. The question arises: But how do we know his will. I believe that John proceeds to give an example of this in the next couple of verses:
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Here is an example of how you can pray in the will of God.
When you see your brother (a Christian) sin, go to him, counsel him, pray for him. After repenting he will continue on to live and walk in fellowship with God. John is slowly introducing a subject of a "sin unto death," about which is some controversy.
There is nothing wrong in saying that we don't know exactly what that sin was back then. The most important principle is to pray according to the will of God.
However here are two possibilities of a sin unto death:
1. Could it be murder. Murder carries (or should carry) the penalty of capital punishment. It did in Christ's day. There is no sense in praying for a person whose just outcome is death. It is not going to change.
2. It could refer to apostasy. John has been referring to this much in his epistle. He has directed much of which he has written against "false teachers." Many of the false teachers were gnostics. If you take the NT as a whole, you find that almost every book of the NT speaks against false teachers. John in particular has some very harsh things to say about them. In II John 9-11, he commands such not to be invited into one's household, and not even to say good-by to them (which means "God-be-with-you"). They are false teachers, and many of them may even be demon-possessed. Thus John says in 1John 4:1-4 to test the spirits to see whether they of God or not. They are not always of God, but may be of satan.
Jesus said: Don't cast your pearls before swine.
Spend your time, both in witnessing and in prayer for those that are "redeemable" not those that are like the Pharisees who crucifed the Lord out of a demonized craze that would never come to know Christ. We know that there are some religious cult leaders that no matter what one does they are not going to convert. Some J.W. leaders are like that. Why waste your time arguing with them.
I do not say that he should pray for it.
Could this "sin unto death" be a death sentence as you just said? Like the thief on the cross? I had pondered this as well. Different cultures gave death sentences for differing reasons. If it was the law that you would be put to death for stealing another mans horse then there was no sense in praying for abundant, longer or restored life for this believer. It wasn't going to happen and your request would be presumptuous upon God.
This possibility would also make sense in the fact that one would know what sin John was speaking of you seeing a brother commit. John does seem to imply that you would know this sin when you see it.
Now I don't believe I would personally ask God to take his life, but I can understand the terrible wrong this brother would be doing to the cause of Jesus Christ and other Christians. I would be obligated to turn him in to the authorities if it is such a crime that physically harmed another in any way, if it was stealing I would urge him to repent and give it back preemptively and ask for mercy.
I believe we should agree that the "sin unto death" must be a sin that is known and seen. Now is it sins that we know the law of the land punishes with capital punishment (physical death) or is it "a sin" that we know is unto the second death which is denying Jesus is Lord?
Can we actually see a brother sin such a sin as denying the Lord which bought him? This is probably debateable.
At the least, should we not agree it is known sin or sins? "If any man see his brother sin"
:jesus: